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Slartibartfast 
Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam Joined: April 29 2006 Location: Atlantais Status: Offline Points: 29630 |
 Posted: January 05 2009 at 12:54 |
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Well, isn't the whole weighting thing about compensating for spurious ratings anyway?
I'm one of those freaks who posts on the forum and does reviews.  Edited by Slartibartfast - January 05 2009 at 12:56 |
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Dean
Special Collaborator 
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: January 05 2009 at 12:55 |
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Yes
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What?
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: May 26 2008 Location: Declined Status: Offline Points: 16715 |
Posted: January 05 2009 at 13:00 |
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You're right, it's been a bit of a star pile on.
The collabs could be weighted less, I guess--although in a way, doesn't the fact that their reviews are really long weight themselves? ;-) Ratings only should be almost worthless. I must strongly object to any notion that this is a democracy. Every website is a benevolent oligarchy, or at least mostly benevolent ;-), and you can embrace your Glorious Leaders or leave.
I am more upset that the regular reviews are pushed off to the side, even when there isn't a collab review. I'm sure there were reasons, and I know it's probably not going to get changed any time soon, if ever, but it seems to me to be a bit of a slap in the face of the normal reviewer.
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: January 05 2009 at 13:04 |
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I'm with you on that one, but that's how the site owner has chosen to display them. As Admins and Collabs we have control over the content, not the layout.
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What?
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 26 2008 Location: Declined Status: Offline Points: 16715 |
Posted: January 05 2009 at 13:10 |
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Yeah, I know it's up to Max and not you, and Max is probably doesn't care about my opinion of his layout choices, but I'm not awake enough now for math, although it's not like I'm ever awake enough, so I was just contributing in the only way I could.
 Although if you're planning a mutiny, dean, you have my sword. ;-) Edited by Henry Plainview - January 05 2009 at 13:10 |
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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Easy Livin
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: February 21 2004 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 15585 |
Posted: January 05 2009 at 13:19 |
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M@x is aware of the shortcomings in the way the reviews are presented, and is working on improvements.
On the ratings issue, bear in mind that the weightings are just that, weightings. No ratings are excluded.
IMDB is an excellent resource and the founders etc. are to be congratulated on its development. I suspect however that it is more commercially orientated that this one, which is a genuine fans' site. Our sole objective here is the appreciation of prog and the widening of its appeal.... our two objectives here are.... (sorry wandered off into Monty Python there). The offering of incentives must be a legitimate way towards achieving that goal.
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Uncle Spooky
Forum Groupie 
Joined: July 31 2007 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 59 |
Posted: January 05 2009 at 13:20 |
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It shows thought and effort was put into the *writing*; that has nothing to do with understanding what you are writing about... Look at David Ike - writes thousands of pages about lizards circling the Earth and running our society. Is there an ounce of truth in what he writes? I'm willing to bet not. Mark |
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Uncle Spooky
Forum Groupie
Joined: July 31 2007 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 59 |
Posted: January 05 2009 at 13:22 |
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Irrelevant. I can rate an album honestly and accurately without saying a single word. Everything I need to say is there in the rating. If people disagree, let their votes do the talking, not their writing skills. Mark |
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Uncle Spooky
Forum Groupie
Joined: July 31 2007 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 59 |
Posted: January 05 2009 at 13:25 |
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But as I've argued weighting is not the correct way to do it because the ratings skew towards weighted raters' preferences and obscure the true rating. Mark |
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 26 2008 Location: Declined Status: Offline Points: 16715 |
Posted: January 05 2009 at 13:30 |
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I'm glad to hear that!
That is true. We also have a much better community than IMDB. ;-)
Not at all, because your rating is meaningless if nobody else knows why you think that. Edited by Henry Plainview - January 05 2009 at 13:32 |
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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Uncle Spooky
Forum Groupie
Joined: July 31 2007 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 59 |
Posted: January 05 2009 at 13:35 |
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And weightings are used to smother what are seen as sabotage votes? But in the process smother valid votes too. Surely much better to pro-actively work to remove the sabotage and allow all votes their full impact? That's the only route to accuracy.
Sure, but at what expense? Mark |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: January 05 2009 at 13:38 |
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In first place, that's not how it works: Ratings without reviews have weight of 1: I believe you won't even ask why, we don't know if the person who rated it, even heard the album or just rated because he/she loves or hates the band. We've seen people who come here and rate (for example) all Pink Floyd albums with 5 stars, then they go and rate all Yes and Genesis albums with 1 star......Do you think Close to the Edge (I don't like Yes) is worth 1 star in any universe? Or Foxtrot? I guess you won't complain about this. Ratings with reviews: Are worth 3 times, because the person has taken the time to listen the album and rate it, we can know if the person at least heard the album. But still it's not secure, when Dream Theater released Octavarium, we received like 50 reviews from non usual members,all of them described the album as the best thing since sliced bread...Well not my taste but it's OK. But a Collaborator noticed this guys were rating "Elements of Persuasion" by LaBrie, as if it was Octavarium.......So we must take precautions Reviews by Collaborators weight 10, which means 3 1/3 times the review of a non Collaborator: Why? Because we know them, this are persons who have earned a place writing at least 30 coherent reviews before becoming Collaborators or worked on a team checking an analyzing albums that I'm sure you (and probably I) haven't heard in our lives, so their knowledge is improved. 3.3333 times is not an abuse, it's a rational precaution we take, BTW a rating without review by a Collaborator or even by M@x is worth 1, because that's a flat average. Now lets go to the central piece, this is not a Democracy, but we are by far the most democratic place of the big Prog ones, lets see the biggest: GEPR: I write reviews for them, but you have to send then to Fred Trafton, and in the best scenario you have to wait 3 months, I sent a review of the Peruvian band "Laghonia" several months ago,. but the last update was March 27, 2008. That's not all, he evaluates the review and adds it if he decides it's good enough...Here in Prog Archives you see your review 5 seconds after you posted it and nobody decides if it's good or not, we just add it. Progressive Ears: Even though they are an excellent Forum, their database is very small, and the reviews have to be approved also. Proggnosis: Another good site,. as far as I know only the staff writes reviews DPRP: You have to be evaluated, make your review according to their standards and sign a compromise of exclusivity with them....For God's sake, it's for free and you have to be exclusive. And that's not all, they have just published: Many thanks to all who responded for our call for New Reviewers. Due to the good response, we've now closed the application page and will be in touch with those who applied soon. Bob Mulvey So not only you have to apply, be accepted, wait, etc, it's their system, I respect but because it works for them, but here you are allowed to publish as many reviews as you want without any limit and you still complain?
Iván Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - January 05 2009 at 14:28 |
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Uncle Spooky
Forum Groupie
Joined: July 31 2007 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 59 |
Posted: January 05 2009 at 13:39 |
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So every chart view on the site is worthless? If so, why include them? I grant you that reviews can be very helpful to offer insight into the album, to offer commentary on it etc, but when you just want a list of the top 50 best symphonic prog albums of 2008 so that you can fill up your shopping cart with the best prog has to offer this year wouldn't you rather it was based on accurate and honest ratings (so that you're not about to waste your money) and not ones distorted by some misguided conception that those who write reviews are better able to accurately rate albums than those who do not? Mark |
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Uncle Spooky
Forum Groupie
Joined: July 31 2007 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 59 |
Posted: January 05 2009 at 13:40 |
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Hehe, well that's a topic for another time perhaps! Mark |
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Uncle Spooky
Forum Groupie
Joined: July 31 2007 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 59 |
Posted: January 05 2009 at 13:44 |
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But why not go that one step further, blaze the trail and become the most democratic Prog site around? ;) There's really nothing to lose, and everything to gain. Mark |
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: May 22 2007 Location: Michigan, U.S. Status: Offline Points: 66266 |
Posted: January 05 2009 at 13:47 |
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It is kind of funny. I use IMDB all of the time for looking up the names of various actors and actresses in movies or TV shows that I have seen when I think that I know them but I can't place where I know them from. I also like using it as a resource for finding out other movies and TV shows that favorite actors and actresses have appeared in so that I can later track down those movies or shows to watch. For all of the times that I have used IMDB as a resource I had no idea that there was a system in place for anyone to rate the movies.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: January 05 2009 at 13:48 |
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We tried it Uncle Spooky and didn't worked, it was chaotic, two administrators had to work 24/7 in precaution of manipulation, and a lot of reviews were deleted, today hardly a review is deleted unless it's insulting.
If we are Nª 1 place in the web for Progressive Rock pages.....is because we are doing things well.
BTW: Music is not a democracy, if it was we would be listenin Gangsta Rap because millions would chose them instead of us.
Iván Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - January 05 2009 at 13:50 |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: January 05 2009 at 13:50 |
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I'm not convinced you have demonstrated that with any degree of confidence; without analysing the content of the Collabs review with the numerical rating value, and taken that in relation to his other ratings and reviews. Even then it is difficult (nay impossible) to measure any bias or preference - for example we all know of a well known Collab who dislikes Dream Theater with a passion - yet he manages to review and rate Scenes From a Memory pt 2 with 4-stars - is that an indication of bias or personal preference? No. Compare that to some one who gives every DT album 1-star and every King Crimson album 5-star ratings-only. With ratings-only we cannot gauge the reviewers intent, only record their final vote, unless we fully analyse each and every rating they make across the board..
Weighting skews the results towards the Collaborators votes because that is what it is designed to do - and they are only effective on albums with a low total number of ratings to prevent nefarious people hyping-up an album - the weighting on albums with hundreds of ratings is less relevant. Edited by Dean - January 05 2009 at 18:13 |
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What?
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Padraic
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 16 2006 Location: Pennsylvania Status: Offline Points: 31169 |
Posted: January 05 2009 at 13:55 |
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Plus any skew towards "collabs preferences" doesn't mean much - the tastes and preferences of the all the collaborators on this site span the prog spectrum.
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam Joined: April 29 2006 Location: Atlantais Status: Offline Points: 29630 |
Posted: January 05 2009 at 14:10 |
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Fine, I am going to have to weigh in with a lizard for now, but I'll be back... 
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Ratings: Weighting is harming Prog Archives
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Dean wrote: