So punk killed the prog did it ?

Edited by The T - July 20 2008 at 19:57

Atavachron wrote: another thing we forget is that  Punk, at least the early British incarnation and American 'proto punk', is almost as old as Prog - it nearly paralleled it, developing right around the time of Prog's musical peak in the early 70s (if not earlier) - so in hindsight it was really just another new, innovative voice in rock that came, succeeded, and went, and wasn't too much different in spirit from the rock 'n roll of bands as the Kinks and even Hamburg-era Beatles.

Well said.

There's a certain album recorded in 1967 by a band named Van der Graaf Generator.  It's prog but listen to Hammill's vocal style... it's got punk-leanings, even back then.

Then you have the likes of Iggy Pop and the Stooges and later on, The MC5.

Then comes the proper punk of late 1970s, which only lasted about 2 years... then came post-punk.  Many post-punk bands are almost prog (some are here in the database!).

Frith and Cutler, old Henry Cowsters, embraced the punk scene.  Frith was in Massacre.  Not post-punk per sé but they certainly didn't have over zealous guitar chops.  They made short tunes.  Two other bands that also embraced Punk and New Wave were Camberwell Now and This Heat (and  with Charles Hayward on drums).  Charles Hayward was linked directly to the Canterbury Scene and where is he now?  He's playing with the avant-prog band Clear Frame (with Hugh Hopper and Lol Coxhill).  Frith also joined Pere Ubu for a short time as well.

Then there was PiL with John Lydon on vocals, they certainly weren't straight-up punk.

As someone else also said, you had The Teardrop Explodes as well.  Entering the realms of New Wave, you had, in 1977/78, bands such as Television (big pre-cursors to post-punk and new wave) and Joy Division.  Both I believe had prog influences (mostly Kraut Rock, I think).  Also, The Velvet Underground (arguably proggy) were more than just a punk band (they weren't a punk band) but influenced much of the post-punk.  One must not forget the bands on Ralph Records either, such as The Residents and Tuxedomoon (this latter band blend new wave, punk and prog together successfully).

So punk didn't kill prog, it just put it on hiatus, until the early 1980s, when post-punk started to blend prog with elements of punk and new wave styles.

To go full circle, Peter Hammill and Robert Fripp have guested live with The Stranglers (who got lumped into the punk scene and were much more than that in reality).  Fripp also played with David Bowie on Low and Berlin, whilst Adrian Belew played with Bowie and Talking Heads (who are also rather Punk in their sound at times).


Edited by James - July 20 2008 at 22:58

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - July 20 2008 at 22:52

russellk wrote: One of the really interesting things about this issue is how the rise, fall and evolution of punk parallels that of prog. From three-chord garage bands in the early 60's, through Iggy Pop, MC5 and The Who (as much, if not more, proto-punk as proto-prog), there's as much history to punk rock as there is to progressive rock. The term was used by music critics as early as 1970, a full six years before the apogee of the genre (again similar to prog). The genre enjoyed a relatively short golden era, just as prog did - though shorter. Pretty soon its critics claimed it died (just as critics claim prog died), but in reality it became another genre of rock, no longer in the limelight but still very much alive. Hardcore and New Wave evolved from 'classic' punk, the latter tying melodic and mainstream sensibilities to the genre a la neo-prog, and post-punk (my particular favourite) emerged in the early 1980s. Today punk is very much alive through bands as diverse as Green Day (pop-punk), Yellowcard, Good Charlotte - bands many fans from the 'classic' mid-70s period might not call punk, but they are as true to the pioneering late 60s and early 70s sound as the Sex Pistols ever were. The punk community even has arguments like ours - Green Day and even The Ramones supposedly became commercial, 'selling out' for the money (god forbid we ever think the Sex Pistols did anything for money!), in just the same way and with as much passion as many proggers think Genesis sold out in the late 70s. Punk Rock is a vibrant genre that keeps itself alive through the dedication of its fans (including websites similar to this one), and the continual willingness of musicians everywhere to take a sound they love and experiment with it. Punk isn't dead and neither is prog. One didn't kill the other, despite a few paranoid media claims to the contrary. In fact, such musical evolution keeps people in love with popular music (I mean the wider term, not just 'pop'). Without punk and other developments, the world would have lost interest in rock and moved on to something else. Rather than killing prog, punk and the like kept rock alive.

if anything this makes complete sense to me, Punk and Prog aren't dead, nor should they be seen as "enemies", they continue on to this day and so much has come since the inception of both Prog and Punk...the only way any of these 2 musics will ever be completely dead is when there isn't a single fan left alive to enjoy the sounds of either

Just trying here to walk(crawl) under the rocks being cast........ Neurosis...PUNK??????????????????????????????????????????

The T wrote: Just trying here to walk(crawl) under the rocks being cast........ Neurosis...PUNK??????????????????????????????????????????   please clarify if it's another Neurosis than the one listed in nthis website and that Ivan mentioned in his post... they have a very, VVVVery weak link with hardcore punk (in their beginnings) but, as of late, they're a very dark and slow and gloomy doom band... to paraphrase somebody, they have left punk behind now that they learned how to play... ........   I know many metal bands evolved from punk, and that grunge in a way also drunk from punk's fountains.... but all those genres are so far away from the original thing....

they were definitely Hardcore Punk in their beginnings, one of the most active bands in the SoCal Hardcore scene during the late 80s, when you see a band progress throughout the years the changes don't seem that drastic each album was just the next logical step--a progression of their original Punk sound, ...yeah I guess its a far stretch to say that what they are doing nowadays is Punk (at least in the traditional sense) but to me they'll always be that bright eyed restless Punk band that started out with Pain of Mind,


Edited by mithrandir - July 21 2008 at 00:59

Iván,

Wikipedia says:

Grunge (sometimes referred to as the Seattle Sound) is a subgenre of alternative rock that emerged during the mid-1980s in the American state of Washington, particularly in the Seattle area. Inspired by hardcore punk, heavy metal and indie rock, grunge is generally characterized by heavily distorted electric guitars, contrasting song dynamics, and apathetic or angst-filled lyrics. The grunge aesthetic is stripped-down compared to other forms of rock music, and many grunge musicians were noted for their unkempt appearances and rejection of theatrics.


So there's one root for Hardcore Punk for Grunge.


Also:

Hardcore punk (usually referred to as simply hardcore) is a subgenre of punk rock that originated in North America around 1980. The new sound was generally thicker, heavier and faster than earlier punk rock.^[1] The songs are usually short, fast, and loud, covering topics such as politics, personal freedom, violence, social alienation, Straight edge, war, and the hardcore subculture itself.^[2][3][4]

Hardcore spawned several fusion genres and subgenres, some of which had mainstream success, such as melodic hardcore, metalcore, sludge metal and thrash metal.

Thus linking in many forms of metal.

Emo

Emo (pronounced /ˈiːmoʊ/) is a style of hardcore punk which describes several variations of music with common roots. In the mid-1980s, the term emo described a subgenre of hardcore punk which originated in the Washington, D.C. music scene. In later years, the term emocore, short for "emotional hardcore", was also used to describe the emotional performances of bands in the Washington, D.C. scene and some of the offshoot regional scenes such as Rites of Spring, Embrace, One Last Wish, Beefeater, Gray Matter, Fire Party, and later, Moss Icon. (In more recent years, the term "emotive hardcore" entered the lexicon to describe the period.)

Alternative rock

Main article: Alternative rock

The underground punk rock movement inspired countless bands that either evolved from a punk rock sound or brought its outsider spirit to very different kinds of music. The original punk explosion also had a long-term effect on the music industry, spurring the growth of the independent sector.^[233] During the early 1980s, British bands like New Order and The Cure that straddled the lines of post-punk and New Wave developed both new musical styles and a distinctive industrial niche. Though commercially successful over an extended period, they maintained an underground-style, subcultural identity.^[234] In the United States, bands such as Minneapolis's Hüsker Dü and their protégés The Replacements bridged the gap between punk rock genres like hardcore and the more expansive sound of what was called "college rock" at the time.^[235]

A 1985 Rolling Stone feature on the Minneapolis scene and innovative California hardcore acts such as Black Flag and Minutemen declared, "Primal punk is passé. The best of the American punk rockers have moved on. They have learned how to play their instruments. They have discovered melody, guitar solos and lyrics that are more than shouted political slogans. Some of them have even discovered the Grateful Dead."^[236] By the end of the 1980s, these bands, who had largely eclipsed their punk rock forebears in popularity, were classified broadly as alternative rock. Alternative rock encompasses a diverse set of styles—including gothic rock and grunge, among others—unified by their debt to punk rock and their origins outside of the musical mainstream.^[237]

All those genres are heavily influenced by punk.


And finally, a note about current Punk:

By 1998, the punk revival had commercially stalled,^[252] but not for long. Pop punk band Blink-182's 1999 release, Enema of the State, reached the Billboard top ten and sold four million copies in less than a year.^[245] New pop punk bands such as Sum 41, Simple Plan, Yellowcard, and Good Charlotte achieved major sales in the first decade of the 2000s. In 2004, Green Day's American Idiot went to number one on both the U.S. and UK charts. Jimmy Eat World, which had taken emo in a radio-ready pop punk direction,^[253] had top-ten albums in 2004 and 2007; in a similar style, Fall Out Boy hit number one with 2007's Infinity on High. The revival was broad-based: AFI, with roots in hardcore, had great success with 2003's Sing the Sorrow and topped the U.S. chart with Decemberunderground in 2006. Ska punk groups such as Reel Big Fish and Less Than Jake continued to attract new fans. Celtic punk, with U.S. bands such as Flogging Molly and Dropkick Murphys merging the sound of Oi! and The Pogues, reached wide audiences. The Australian punk rock tradition was carried on by groups such as Frenzal Rhomb, The Living End, and Bodyjar.




Edited by James - July 21 2008 at 01:58

1.- James, your own a words say it:

James wrote: You misunderstood me, Iván. Yes, they're influenced by punk but they also have the mentality of punk.  They're just related sub-genres of punk rock. Besides, what is prog-punk (pronk), pop punk. Celtic punk and ska-punk? All four of those genres are punk sub-genres.  The bands who play in those styles have the punk ethic and play punk music.  It's just not the punk music of 1978, it's grown into something else.  Prog has as well.  Infact, what is Prog Rock?  It's a thousand and one sub genres of some very loose genre called Progressive Rock. Therefore, Prog Rock died before it actually began and in fact, does not exist and never has. Some examples of those four sub-genres of Punk: Pronk - Cardiacs Pop Punk - any number of modern bands... but Blink-182, Green Day, Sum 41 and Good Charlotte Celtic punk - Flogging Molly and Dropkick Murphy's Ska Punk - Reel Big Fish and Less Than Jake Noise Rock is also yet another genre that's influenced by punk and is a sub-genre of punk.  This is a huge genre and it's immediate, by listening to such bands, that they have taken Punk in yet another direction.  Boredoms, Melt-Banana and Lightning Bolt are obvious bands that come to mind here.

Walker wrote: Frasse wrote: I wasn't even born back then but get the impression that "Punk killed Prog" is a myth so influencing that proggers seem to believe it themselves. Many of my favourite prog albums are from the punk-era of late 70s. Genesis was way bigger then than in the early 70s, and still prog. The biggest album of the era is Pink Floyds "The Wall" etc.   Well,, I was around back then and living in New York, I can tell you all that Punk did indeed kill prog, at least in my part of the USA. Yes, some decent prog albums came out around that time (The Wall, Duke, Drama), but they were few and far between compared to the glory days of the early 70's. Forget about hearing prog in any local music venue.. it wasn't going to happen. I imagine London was the same way, and probably worse.