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Mikerinos 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Planet Gong
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Points: 8890
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 Posted: August 08 2006 at 23:57 |
I feel like bashing my head against the wall multiple times for starting this sh*t. 
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Sacred 22
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 24 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 1509
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Posted: August 09 2006 at 00:01 |
 Bluesaga wrote:
I feel like bashing my head against the wall multiple times for starting this sh*t.
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Why, if it is in fact Steve Wilson, you have started a great thread that ultimatly involed the actual musician in question. I would say that's not too shabby. 
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: August 09 2006 at 00:03 |
Come on, Mike. We haven't had a really good discussion in awhile.  At least not one about DT. 
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AtLossForWords
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 11 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 6699
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Posted: August 09 2006 at 00:03 |
OpethGuitarist wrote:
As unprofessional as it may be, what do you say if you are asked a direct question like, what is your opinion on rap music?
It's really tough to get around that kind of a question without stating how you really feel, unless of course you lie about it. Personally, I will try to be as nice as possible, but I'm not going to lie about something in order to be "professional". Being professional is more than just not saying bad things about others, and I'll be damned if the definition of professional is to "lie about everything in public so as not to offend anyone"
Just some food for thought.
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He could have responded in a much better way than he did. He could have said "I don't enjoy that genre of music" rather than what he did which was along the lines of how they were ripping off of '70s bands and they will never plays that music as well as the older bands did and etc. That was just a terribly unprofessional response.
I'll say it again loud and clear.
I HAVE RESPECT FOR OPINIONS, I HAVE RESPECT FOR TASTE, BUT I DON'T HAVE RESPECT FOR A PROFESSIONAL MUSICIAN GOING INTO DETAIL INSULTING THE EFFORTS OF ANOTHER BAND!!!!
sacred wrote:
I'm sure all the Dream Theater Fan boys here just love that....................... |
Given my current mood swing of anti-Dream-Theater- loving on this forum lately, that didn't make me feel any better. I'd like to eat some humble pie with DT though. 
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"Mastodon sucks giant monkey balls."
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
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Points: 28057
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Posted: August 09 2006 at 00:08 |
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With all this professional and unprofessional talk, Vince, it seems like you hold SW to a higer standard than ordinary people. Is this true? If so, why does is matter? People are people, and I'd not necessarily respect, but admire a musician willing to speak his mind rather than just smile and say, "Well this band is just fine." or "I have no opinion on this matter."
Edited by stonebeard - August 09 2006 at 00:08
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Sacred 22
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 24 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 1509
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Posted: August 09 2006 at 00:14 |
AtLossForWords wrote:
OpethGuitarist wrote:
As unprofessional as it may be, what do you say if you are asked a direct question like, what is your opinion on rap music?
It's really tough to get around that kind of a question without stating how you really feel, unless of course you lie about it. Personally, I will try to be as nice as possible, but I'm not going to lie about something in order to be "professional". Being professional is more than just not saying bad things about others, and I'll be damned if the definition of professional is to "lie about everything in public so as not to offend anyone"
Just some food for thought.
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He could have responded in a much better way than he did. He could have said "I don't enjoy that genre of music" rather than what he did which was along the lines of how they were ripping off of '70s bands and they will never plays that music as well as the older bands did and etc. That was just a terribly unprofessional response.
I'll say it again loud and clear.
I HAVE RESPECT FOR OPINIONS, I HAVE RESPECT FOR TASTE, BUT I DON'T HAVE RESPECT FOR A PROFESSIONAL MUSICIAN GOING INTO DETAIL INSULTING THE EFFORTS OF ANOTHER BAND!!!!
sacred wrote:
I'm sure all the Dream Theater Fan boys here just love that....................... |
Given my current mood swing of anti-Dream-Theater- loving on this forum lately, that didn't make me feel any better. I'd like to eat some humble pie with DT though. |
I don't know, it is funny in a silly kind of way. They, that being DT are getting quite a few bits lately.
It's got to be good for album sales, at least as a result of this site anyway.
I'm pushing TFTO while I'm at it. All fans of prog should own a copy as they should own a copy of Images and Words.
I do agree that opinions on the professional stage should stay withing the boundaries of respect, but we are talking show business here.
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AtLossForWords
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 11 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 6699
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Posted: August 09 2006 at 00:15 |
stonebeard wrote:
With all this professional and unprofessional talk, Vince, it seems like you hold SW to a higer standard than ordinary people. Is this true? If so, why does is matter? People are people, and I'd not necessarily respect, but admire a musician willing to speak his mind rather than just smile and say, "Well this band is just fine." or "I have no opinion on this matter." |
Am I holding him to a higher standard than ordinary people? Yes I am. Am I holding him to a higher standard than any other musician, no I'm not. I think it's terrible when a musician puts down the work of another?
I don't think you understand just how much work it takes for any musician to make any kind of album Stony. There's just so much that has to go into it. For someone who hasn't sat in a recording studio and a rehearsel space day in and day out to get a perfect result, it's impossible to understand how frustrating of a battle it is.
Other people and fans of music have all the right to criticize it. A musician on the other hand, one who's been through such a struggle should understand just how insulting it is to say to another musician "you can't do this as good as they did". That's pretty much saying, you put your heart and soul into recording a masterpice, but I think it's anything but that. You'll never be what you want to be and that's just fine with me.
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"Mastodon sucks giant monkey balls."
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
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Points: 28057
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Posted: August 09 2006 at 00:20 |
AtLossForWords wrote:
stonebeard wrote:
With all this professional and unprofessional talk, Vince, it seems like you hold SW to a higer standard than ordinary people. Is this true? If so, why does is matter? People are people, and I'd not necessarily respect, but admire a musician willing to speak his mind rather than just smile and say, "Well this band is just fine." or "I have no opinion on this matter." |
Am I holding him to a higher standard than ordinary people? Yes I am. Am I holding him to a higher standard than any other musician, no I'm not. I think it's terrible when a musician puts down the work of another?
I don't think you understand just how much work it takes for any musician to make any kind of album Stony. There's just so much that has to go into it. For someone who hasn't sat in a recording studio and a rehearsel space day in and day out to get a perfect result, it's impossible to understand how frustrating of a battle it is.
Other people and fans of music have all the right to criticize it. A musician on the other hand, one who's been through such a struggle should understand just how insulting it is to say to another musician "you can't do this as good as they did". That's pretty much saying, you put your heart and soul into recording a masterpice, but I think it's anything but that. You'll never be what you want to be and that's just fine with me. |
Well thanks for clearing that up. 
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Sacred 22
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 24 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 1509
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Posted: August 09 2006 at 00:24 |
AtLossForWords wrote:
stonebeard wrote:
With all this professional and unprofessional talk, Vince, it seems like you hold SW to a higer standard than ordinary people. Is this true? If so, why does is matter? People are people, and I'd not necessarily respect, but admire a musician willing to speak his mind rather than just smile and say, "Well this band is just fine." or "I have no opinion on this matter." |
Am I holding him to a higher standard than ordinary people? Yes I am. Am I holding him to a higher standard than any other musician, no I'm not. I think it's terrible when a musician puts down the work of another?
I don't think you understand just how much work it takes for any musician to make any kind of album Stony. There's just so much that has to go into it. For someone who hasn't sat in a recording studio and a rehearsel space day in and day out to get a perfect result, it's impossible to understand how frustrating of a battle it is.
Other people and fans of music have all the right to criticize it. A musician on the other hand, one who's been through such a struggle should understand just how insulting it is to say to another musician "you can't do this as good as they did". That's pretty much saying, you put your heart and soul into recording a masterpice, but I think it's anything but that. You'll never be what you want to be and that's just fine with me.
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Life as a musician can be a bitch and just think of all the bad blood that's been exchanged over the years between band members etc etc. It's a nasty business. I have been there, got the T shirt. 
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mystic fred
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 13 2006
Location: Londinium
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Points: 4252
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Posted: August 09 2006 at 04:44 |
I think both musicians are excellent, though i voted for steve w as i've not been into opeth that long, they're a different animal really.
BTW welcome to the ruff'n'tumble of PA Steven !!!
Edited by mystic fred - August 09 2006 at 09:01
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 Prog Archives Tour Van 
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MajesterX
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 30 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 513
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Posted: August 09 2006 at 09:46 |
AtLossForWords wrote:
Mike would never say a bad word about anyone.
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..Except Geoff Tate... But other than that he's really nice for being so all-over-the-place and busy. He answers tons of fan questions and gives frequent news on his forum.
stonebeard wrote:
it seems
like you hold SW to a higer standard than ordinary people. Is this
true? If so, why does is matter? People are people |
It DOES matter. The average person does not have hordes of fans and followers who look upon them as role-models such that they will listen to every word the person says and take it for truth. What do you think the average person will believe more- your friend's cousin's aunt's opinion, or your idol's opinion who you are obessed over? Does it matter whose opinion matters more now?
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Bob Greece
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2005
Location: Greece
Status: Offline
Points: 1823
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Posted: August 09 2006 at 10:11 |
swilson wrote:
You guys are nuts! But there's certainly no doubt that Mikael is an infinitely more gifted musician than myself.
As for being an asshole, well maybe - what's the evidence, I'm curious? 
SW
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I had to have a good laugh when I read this. Who would have thought that Steve Wilson would get involved in this thread.
I hope Steve Wilson comes back to the forum and it wasn't just a one off.
Edited by Bob Greece - August 09 2006 at 10:12
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Kleynan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 28 2006
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 720
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Posted: August 09 2006 at 10:23 |
Oh my god! SW was here? My hero! Hehe... 
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You've just had a heavy session of electroshock therapy, and you're more relaxed than you've been in weeks.
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Bob Greece
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2005
Location: Greece
Status: Offline
Points: 1823
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Posted: August 09 2006 at 11:11 |
swilson wrote:
But there's certainly no doubt that Mikael is an infinitely more gifted musician than myself. |
So who did you vote for then?
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Melomaniac
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 07 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 4088
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Posted: August 09 2006 at 11:15 |
AtLossForWords wrote:
stonebeard wrote:
With all this professional and unprofessional talk, Vince, it seems like you hold SW to a higer standard than ordinary people. Is this true? If so, why does is matter? People are people, and I'd not necessarily respect, but admire a musician willing to speak his mind rather than just smile and say, "Well this band is just fine." or "I have no opinion on this matter." |
Am I holding him to a higher standard than ordinary people? Yes I am. Am I holding him to a higher standard than any other musician, no I'm not. I think it's terrible when a musician puts down the work of another?
I don't think you understand just how much work it takes for any musician to make any kind of album Stony. There's just so much that has to go into it. For someone who hasn't sat in a recording studio and a rehearsel space day in and day out to get a perfect result, it's impossible to understand how frustrating of a battle it is.
Other people and fans of music have all the right to criticize it. A musician on the other hand, one who's been through such a struggle should understand just how insulting it is to say to another musician "you can't do this as good as they did". That's pretty much saying, you put your heart and soul into recording a masterpice, but I think it's anything but that. You'll never be what you want to be and that's just fine with me.
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A musician releasing an album is a TARGET to criticism and opinions, and that criticism can and will come from anywhere, wether you like it or not. If a musician is unable to cope with the feedback he receives about his work, be it from the press, fans or other musicians, then he might as well record music for himself and never release anything. Nobody can please everyone, especially in music.
As a musician myself I have dealt with some frustrations about other people's opinions towards my music. In a local radio interview, the show host compared us, on the air, to Evanescence, while our style is more of something like an improbable cross of many elements and influences such as Opeth, PT, The Cranberries, etc. Why ? Because we have a metal edge and a female lead singer, and that was the only comparison he could come up with (radio show hosts in and around Montreal are definitely not in it for the music, let me tell you that!!!). Not being an Evanescence fan, needless to say I found his remark dreadful, but in his mind he was being kind to us. That served as a lesson. You have absolutely NO CONTROL WHATSOEVER about what people will say about your music. The only control you can have is how you react to what is being said.
Peace to all !
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: August 09 2006 at 11:58 |
AtLossForWords wrote:
the right to criticize it. A musician on the other hand, one who's been through such a struggle should understand just how insulting it is to say to another musician "you can't do this as good as they did". That's pretty much saying, you put your heart and soul into recording a masterpice, but I think it's anything but that. You'll never be what you want to be and that's just fine with me.
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Unfortunately many musicians put their image into their recording rather than their heart and soul.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Posted: August 09 2006 at 12:17 |
>Anyone that takes it upon themselves to insult a band that features Mike Portnoy is an asshole.
Why? Because you are fan you can't accept that someone else may not find his work so wonderful? It's admirable that you feel your righteousness so strongly, but are we not all free to express an opinion about music that we don't care for?
>Mike would never say a bad word about anyone.
Well he is a friend of mine, and I can tell you that he certainly does!
>This same individual also said that it's to Tool's credit that it's O.K. to play prog again. I have a >question for this individual, since when was it not O.K. for a musician to play any music other than >the kind he wants to? When was it not O.K. for musicians who want to play Prog of play Prog?
You take me out of context - the point was that the media have accepted progressive rock again since bands like Tool, Radiohead, Muse, and The Mars Volta have made it "cool" again. In that sense it's "OK" to play progressive music again from a media perspective. I've been playing progressive influenced music for 20 years so you aren't seriously suggesting that it took a band like Tool to come along before I could make music that I wanted to? That would be absurd.
>I don't have any respect for any musician as talented as they may be to go out and give an interview >where they insult another band, musician, or genre that they don't particularly like. It's not >professional of them at all.
OK - I have a question. It's not OK for me to criticize other musicians - and we all accept that I was wrong to do that - but it's OK for you to criticise other musicians in this public forum as a reviewer? Here's a few choice comments from your review of Death's Leprosy album:
"This is a terrible album"
"Schuldiner writes the majority of the juvenile riffs throughout this
album."
"The production is awful, no clarity, no definition, but a bunch of distortion that fits the
attitude of the music."
"this album is a waste of money
in any collection."
I guess you think it's OK for you to say these things because quite clearly you are right about this (nonone could possibly have an alternate opinion) and I'm wrong about Transatlantic. I fail to see the difference, although of course I'm not excusing my comments, which I concede were regrettable. The thing is that I (like you) am extremely paissionate about music, and in my interviews I am passionately opinionated in my views, both positive and negative. If I could charachterise my conversation with a journalist as being like an enthused discussion about music (the kind I'm sure you have had a hunderd times with your friends, where something may be a masterpiece, and something else may suck), then perhaps you will start to understand how these statements find their way into the press and appear 100 times worse then they might otherwise. In fact my statement that Yes have been sh*t since the seventies I pretty much standby (and I've heard the same sentiments many times from many progressive fans), and the reason it was said with such passion was because as fan I absoultely ADORE their seventies work (in fact recently in a major interrview I conterversially named the criminally under-rated Tales From Topographic Oceans as one of the top 20 UK albums of all time) and I feel quite irate about the lack of quality of their subsequent work. By the way Yes didn't even talk to eachother on that tour - it was very sad to see.
One final thing: although I've been very opinionated in my many interviews over the years, I don't think I've ever made a personal insult against anyone, as you have done to me, no matter how much I dissed their music.
S
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AtLossForWords
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 11 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 6699
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Posted: August 09 2006 at 12:48 |
Wilson wrote:
Why? Because you are fan you can't accept that someone else may not find his work so wonderful? It's admirable that you feel your righteousness so strongly, but are we not all free to express an opinion about music that we don't care for?
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No that's not the case at all. I've repeatedly said in this thread that I respect everyone has different taste, but I can't respect another musician saying something like this about Mike Portnoy. He in his personal life of course will say a bad word about someone, but he's not going to hold an interview and say anything close to what you said about Transatlantic.
Wilson wrote:
You take me out of context - the point was that the media have accepted progressive rock again since bands like Tool, Radiohead, Muse, and The Mars Volta have made it "cool" again. In that sense it's "OK" to play progressive music again from a media perspective. I've been playing progressive influenced music for 20 years so you aren't seriously suggesting that it took a band like Tool to come along before I could make music that I wanted to? That would be absurd. |
"And I think that bands such as the Mars Volta, Radiohead, Sigur Ros, and Tool have made it okay to use the word ‘progressive’ again. It isn’t the kiss of death it might have been a few years ago. "- Steven Wilson
That bit is from an interview in Guitar Player magazine. (July 2005)
You didn't specifically mention anything about media perspective in that interview, which is the one I was referring to. By "kiss of death" do you mean the media? Or do you mean being "progressive" means that you half an hour long
You have also been talking out of both sides of your mouth about how PT is "progressive".
" I can't really answer this question as PT has always tried to avoid any generic classification " "we make "porcupine tree" music, I guess. These days I'm not really sure I know what "progressive" means"
that's from a Progarchives interview.
"Progressive rock is a big part of Porcupine Tree,”
that's from Guitar Player again.
Wilson wrote:
OK - I have a question. It's not OK for me to criticize other musicians - and we all accept that I was wrong to do that - but it's OK for you to criticise other musicians in this public forum as a reviewer? Here's a few choice comments from your review of Death's Leprosy album:
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I'm not giving an interview as an acclaimed musician, you are. I don't think it's fair to compare someone who is a music reviewer, to a working musician. The two have completely different functions. As I've said before, I respect that you have strong opinions on music, but I don't respect that you willing bash another musician in a published interivew. If you want to bash another musician in a publication, why not become a reviewer?
Wilson wrote:
One final thing: although I've been very opinionated in my many interviews over the years, I don't think I've ever made a personal insult against anyone, as you have done to me, no matter how much I dissed their music. |
I apologize for my earlier comment  , I should have posted in a much more mature manner than I did. It's not fair to say you're an asshole. However, I don't always approve of the manner you express your personal opinions.
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"Mastodon sucks giant monkey balls."
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Zweck
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 20 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 234
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Posted: August 09 2006 at 13:18 |
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AtLossForWords: I don't know about you, but I tend to contradict myself quite often, depending on how much I can be bothered to make explain something clearly, how I'm feeling that day, what I've been thinking of lately, only when I do it it doesn't get documented when I do it. When you're doing interviews(Not to mention MANY interviews) these sort of things will come out much clearer. As long as you're human, and as such in motion, you'll be quite hard pressed to be consistent all the way through life.
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Posted: August 09 2006 at 13:22 |
>"And I think that bands such as the Mars Volta, Radiohead, Sigur Ros, and Tool have made it okay to >use the word ‘progressive’ again. It isn’t the kiss of death it might have been a few years ago. "- >Steven Wilson
>You didn't specifically mention anything about media perspective in that interview, which is the one >I was referring to. By "kiss of death" do you mean the media?
Yes, abolutely. It's always been OK with me to play whatever music you want. The problem is purely one of public and media perception.
>You have also been talking out of both sides of your mouth about how PT is "progressive".
>" I can't really answer this question as PT has always tried to avoid any generic >classification " "we make "porcupine tree" music, I guess. These days I'm not really >sure I know what "progressive" means"
>"Progressive rock is a big part of Porcupine Tree,”
No doubt I've contradicted myself and changed my mind about many things on many occassions, as we all do, but actually I don't really see how these two statements are in opposition. Progressive music cerrtainly *is* a big part of the band, but I would hesitate to describe us as a "progressive rock" band. The idea of genre is a sticky one for any musician, and probably works against being truly "progressive", ironic though that may seem. My answer will also very much depend on the agenda of the person I'm talking to, and what their understanding of the word might be. For example you and I may understand "progressive" to mean a music which creates new hybrids of other forms of music (combining classical with rock, or trip hop with metal, whatever..), innovation, and artistry and ambition in both musicianship and production. It's the first two of these that I personally find Transatlantic fail to fulfill, being too indebted to a blueprint laid down 30 years ago for my taste - but then again I don't believe that they ever claimed the music was supposed to be anything especially innovative, so again I was totally wrong to criticise them on that basis. However, some journalists have another agenda that basically equates "progressive" with music that is unfashionable, vaguely ridiculous, and indulgent. It's important to know what this agenda is when discussing your music with them. To not know or care what their agenda might be may be righteous, but it's also career suicide.
>I'm not giving an interview as an acclaimed musician, you are. I don't think it's fair to compare >someone who is a music reviewer, to a working musician. The two have completely different >functions. As I've said before, I respect that you have strong opinions on music, but I don't respect >that you willing bash another musician in a published interivew. If you want to bash another >musician in a publication, why not become a reviewer?
In a way I'm flattered that you place my opinion so much higher than that of a reviewer, but your distinction is arbitrary. A musician is a music lover (or hater) just like anyone else. Why you believe a musician's printed opinion should be more significant than a reviewer's says a lot about the respect with which you hold other musicians, and I applaud you for that. But I should say that the most hurtful things I have ever read about myself have been not from other musicians, but from reviewers such as yourself. A reviewer's words are more painful precisely BECAUSE you know that they don't understand what it is like to struggle for self expression. At least another musician has some kind of right to criticise, knowing as they do what it takes to get even a slight foothold in this most heartbreaking of industries. Here's one for you....I F***ING HATE THE RED HOT CHILLI PEPPERS!!!! And you can quote me on that.... SW
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Åkerfeldt vs. Wilson
