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What to think of "subject(ive)" and "object(ive)"? |
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David_D 
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 Posted: July 31 2023 at 03:47 |
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But it would be also nice if people could define the key terms/words they use, and especially "subjective" and "objective".
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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David_D
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Posted: July 31 2023 at 04:18 |
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I can agree with this to a certain degree, as I don't find it to be that problematic.
Edited by David_D - July 31 2023 at 07:58 |
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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David_D
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Posted: July 31 2023 at 04:24 |
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To me, the most problematic things are class society and market economy.  And the day we might be confronted with an ecological disaster, we won't question much the notion of objectivity. Edited by David_D - July 31 2023 at 04:41 |
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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David_D
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Posted: July 31 2023 at 06:27 |
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The philosophical position/school I've been particularly fond of call themselves "critical realism", but I've been also attracted to social constructionism and Kant.
Edited by David_D - July 31 2023 at 06:57 |
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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moshkito
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Posted: July 31 2023 at 06:56 |
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Hi, I think that I would be more concerned with the "overlords" than anything else. In my way of seeing things, they make themselves look better and superior to the point of actually defining how something is done, and the laws of the land. Those, are not always in tune, with a person or their individual notions, thus, any ability to learn something and "get better" or "closer" to an "objective" reality goes further and further away. The issue, for me, is us being able to "identify" the folks that are taking us away from the light ... by definition, they are considered "devils", but they are not considered that when they are the rule and the power in the country. But there are ways to see the "objectivity" within someone and how they work with it, were we psychically tuned to see how honest and direct, and true to ourselves we would be at that moment ... which is also another issue. The words themselves would have some weight that was difficult to ignore ... and this one of the tough issues here ... when words have no weight ... and then weirdly enough we are trying to define and learn about something that goes way beyond words. I STILL can not convince these folks that a poor actor can make the worst words sound magnificent! And true! And we love it for its "entertainment"!
 Edited by moshkito - July 31 2023 at 06:59 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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David_D
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Posted: July 31 2023 at 07:51 |
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I think the terms subjective and objective in general and roughly speaking are mainly used like this: objective - 1. related to reality as it supposes to be outside the human mind, or 2. possessing general validity Edited by David_D - July 31 2023 at 14:43 |
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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moshkito
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Posted: July 31 2023 at 16:28 |
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Hi, I do not "believe" this is "outside" the human mind. If that were the case all the occult and esoteric literature of thousands of years would have lost their touch and sense a long time ago. All of these studies are "inward" towards levels of our psyche that we can not exactly understand or experience all the time ... many have tried. For example, Castaneda used a lot of "symbology" and many types of ideas kinda taken from various sources hundred of years in the making. But none of it was "external", though in the first few books there was a high amount of drugs, which were taken out later ... "were they necessary? No, but we had to shut you up so you could learn something else!". Similarly, dreams also have various levels, the furthest of which we rarely tap into. Most of the dreams we remember are the stuff that is basically ruminating the every day life and folks, things we know, and distorting them, which would be a clue that our perception can not see it right. Further in it gets cloudier and muddier and you can not identify many of the things, likely they might be from a different time and place that we have never seen or encountered. Here, fine tuning even further helps some, and faces become visible or body shapes become visible, but your descriptions of them are ... incomplete at best. The ideas/thoughts possible is that an "objective reality" is impossible, since no one will see the same things and agree properly on what they see and how. It's too much of wide ocean of difference and tears. Thus, for your example, for me, the attempt of a definition on these things is akin to the literature of the ancients trying to find a way to structure things so they could control people better, and then write books that supposedly help their religion get a stronger hold on things. |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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David_D
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Posted: August 01 2023 at 04:33 |
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I wonder if this point of view is less problematic and dangerous than the one that argues all theories are relative - if to understand it as a rejection of any objectivity.
Edited by David_D - August 01 2023 at 04:56 |
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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David_D
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Posted: August 01 2023 at 06:55 |
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Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary of Current English from 1974 defines "opinion" and "statement" this way: opinion - belief or judgement not founded on complete knowledge statement - 1. expression in words. 2. stating of facts, views, a problem, etc.
Edited by David_D - August 01 2023 at 06:57 |
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Lewian
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Posted: August 01 2023 at 07:02 |
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Maturana has written on "objectivity in parentheses", i.e., a somewhat weaker concept of objectivity that wouldn't suffer from the defects of the concept he criticises. Note also that a view can be "problematic and dangerous" even if it is correct. Maybe the world and the ways of human beings are just dangerous and problematic, and the hope that any concept of objectivity could cure this is mistaken? I am with the constructivists on objectivity and many things, but I do recognise that their take comes with problems and issues (as any other).
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David_D
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Posted: August 01 2023 at 10:06 |
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We can at least agree it would be a good thing if making the human world better. I certainly don't think any concept of objectivity can do it alone, but otherwise, all the rest is open for discussion, as far as I see it - even I have some pressumptions.  |
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David_D
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Posted: August 02 2023 at 05:26 |
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Actually, I don't find the notion of objectivity to be particularly good, as it surely has some traditions, while I think all knowledge is based on some specific values and product of some specific choices, so it's not impartial. I think what in German is called "Sachlichkeit", which requires some specific methods, is probably a better one. Edited by David_D - August 02 2023 at 06:12 |
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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I prophesy disaster
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Posted: August 02 2023 at 07:32 |
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As I see it, "subjective" refers to a point of view of an individual, whereas "objective" is independent of any point of view. This doesn't mean that objectivity doesn't exist, unless you are a proponent of solipsism, which I'm not. An example from Quantum Mechanics would be that the Many Worlds Interpretation is an objective notion of reality, whereas a subjective perspective of the many worlds is the Copenhagen Interpretation. I use this example to illustrate that the difference between subjective and objective is not about the difference between opinion and fact. It should be noted that one can remove one's perspective from facts about the world, so that people can make objective statements even though they may seem to be solipsistically locked into a subjective perspective.
Edited by I prophesy disaster - August 02 2023 at 07:38 |
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No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man.
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David_D
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Posted: August 02 2023 at 12:15 |
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Do you see some good potentials in social constructionism/constructivism if seen from the left wing perspective?
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Lewian
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Posted: August 02 2023 at 16:46 |
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I'm not sure what you mean by "left wing perspective". The left wing hosts all kinds of democrats, direct and representative, anarchists, and authoritarians. There are best friends and arch enemies of constructivism. There are all kinds of perspectives on the left wing. (The question makes sense for me anyway as I came from the left wing to the constructivists, but these days I'd probably rather see the left wing from a constructivist perspective than the other way round.)
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Lewian
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Posted: August 02 2023 at 16:51 |
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But what do you make of the dilemma that there is simply no way for human beings to go beyond their point of view, at least not if that includes a societal perspective? The point is not that objectivity does not exist, but rather that humans can't achieve it. Unless you say that "objectivity" only refers to the nature of a statement, namely statements that refer to a reality that is supposed to be independent of any point of view, even if there isn't any chance of verifying such statements independently of any point of view.
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David_D
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Posted: August 03 2023 at 02:25 |
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What if I say, from the perspective of "socialism"? |
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Lewian
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Posted: August 03 2023 at 04:40 |
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Marx wrote "social existence determines consciousness", which can easily be seen as anti-constructivist, and I think that there is a good number of scientifically minded "objectivist" socialists who wouldn't appreciate constructivism at all. But then there are also social constructionists who focus far more on how human construction is shaped by society rather than on any "freedom of construction", and they push a very emancipatory, progressive, ultimately left wing agenda.
Edited by Lewian - August 03 2023 at 04:41 |
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moshkito
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Posted: August 03 2023 at 12:20 |
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Hi, School? That ain't the Internet. ..... we own the schools here, and no one pays attention to anything in school anymore, even in college, at least the first 4 years! But who the heck would enjoy getting it getting piled higher and deeper?
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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David_D
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Posted: August 03 2023 at 12:53 |
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I'd say, as a very political thinker he was much more dialectic than that, meaning, surely the other way around as well - which is actually very interesting in the subjective vs objective context.
Edited by David_D - August 03 2023 at 14:02 |
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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David_D wrote: