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Artists considered prog on here but not elsewhere
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iluvmarillion View Drop Down
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Points: 3247 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote iluvmarillion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 08 2021 at 00:59
We wouldn't have this problem if we had prog albums rather than prog artists. It's been explained to me before why we can't do that because it's too difficult and I accept that. However we have albums on this site that shouldn't even be reviewed, not because they're not bad but because they're not prog. The star system is the best way of dealing with the problem because albums are graded upwards or downwards depending on their degree of proginess. However it escapes me why Kind Of Blue is rated so highly, not because it's not a great album, but because I don't see a lot of proginess in it. Other Miles Davis albums are more proggy.

Edited by iluvmarillion - June 08 2021 at 01:00
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Ae would definitely still have this problem, and if anything it would be worse and more divisive. Take Genesis for an obvious example. Most people here will acknowledge that Genesis were a prog group. But which was their last prog album? 😜

Depending on the individual the last album that was prog is anywhere from Lamb to the claim that there is not a single Genesis album that is not prog.

When it comes to albums described as prog before prog is widely recognised as being a thing, there will always be arguments, too. But assuming that prog means progressive (and on this forum that is a mighty big assumption, but let’s run with it), then A Kind of Blue is inarguably a prog album. It just doesn’t seem so by today’s standard. But at the time, it was revolutionary - and more so than a lot of prog albums. As much as people don’t like Pedro, he is correct when he bemoans people not understanding how a piece of music was received at the time.

It’s similar to the sort of arguments I used to hear at school, where people were trying to differentiate between metal and heavy metal, and saying that bands like Black Sabbath and Iron Maiden were not heavy metal because there is nothing heavy about them. They were just metal, or maybe hard rock. To those people heavy metal was Metallica and Megadeth. But Black Sabbath at the time we’re probably just as heavy as Metallica were to those arguing in the schoolyard. One needs to take into account how something sounded contemporaneously.
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Originally posted by Artik Artik wrote:

I'm a man of science and I like when words are ment to mean something. PA standards just dilute the water. If Swans, Tori Amos, Dead Can Dance, Nine Inch Nails are prog, then this word doesn't mean anything. And I say it as a great fan of most of the abovementioned. But, it's only my humble opinion and it doesn't spoil the enjoyment I take from visiting PA frequently.



Not an unreasonable point of view certainly but just in. Newsflash: music ain't a science Shocked
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Its an unfortunate feature of the website, a shame really, but so it goes. 
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I'm currently in the middle of adding Van Morrison's albums to my fourth prog channel, so I can hardly complain about any non-prog artists who don't belong on ProgArchives. Smile

Edited by Psychedelic Paul - June 08 2021 at 07:24
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It’s only really a problem if you think of the word prog as a badge of honour...disregarding all the horse manure that’s been produced over the years.
Also most of these discussion always boil down to definition fascism.
The best way for such a discussion to take place is first to address the difference between Prog: the genre and progressive: the adverb.
Music inside just about any genre can be progressive...that does however not mean that it automatically is prog: the genre...which is why Ligeti, Bob Dylan, Wu-Tang Clan and Sarah Vaughn aren’t included on PA...however progressive they were.

As for artists already featured on PA that members nowadays don’t agree with? Let them be. Think about all those reviews we would be erasing. Nahh once a band is added to PA and have received reviews, we can’t just roll back the decision.
Also PA is always changing. There are specific genre teams that guard the gates of said subgenre....and well...maybe the folks inhabiting the X sub now does not agree with what folks 10 years ago though of regarding pork.

....which is why all of this effectively just ends up as semantics and poor solutions to a problem that only exists if you make it into a problem.
Sure I would love the more intuitive tag solution of RYM’s, where you can attach stickers to individual albums...but yeah..we also talked about that 10 years ago
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Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

I'm currently in the middle of adding Van Morrison to my fourth prog channel, so I can hardly complain about any non-prog artists who don't belong on ProgArchives. Smile


If the music is good, does it really matter how we classify it?
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Originally posted by Progishness Progishness wrote:

If the music is good, does it really matter how we classify it?
No! 🤗
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Progishness View Drop Down
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^On a related note, ask six progheads their opinion on a contentious prog related issue, and expect 6 different forthright discussions.

See also: Rush.
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Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by Progishness Progishness wrote:

If the music is good, does it really matter how we classify it?
No! 🤗



If one is new to a particular band/genre; it would be very useful, practical, and perhaps even necessary for him/her to know some things about that. Be it a classification, a brief introduction/identification, or both. If I were such a person, I wouldn't want to find my thing out the hard way.

As for the ambivalences, disparities in classifications etc... It should be a fun and challenging course for a newbie to conform or differ...
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Progishness View Drop Down
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Yeah grouping related stuff together is useful for starting to find your way, but as has already been discussed many times on this website, many artists (especially those with long recording histories) tend to explore & crossover into many (general music) genres (and prog) sub genres, so I tend to think the way they are categorised on here is often the best representation of their core 'prog credentials'.
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Originally posted by Progishness Progishness wrote:

^On a related note, ask six progheads their opinion on a contentious prog related issue, and expect 6 different forthright discussions.

See also: Rush.

Exactly it's a theory for which everyone has their own opinion.  This is a great site and a great reference but I am pretty sure we all sort our collections to suit ourselves whether vinyl's, CDs or on an MP3 player.

When I first saw the Beatles here years ago I almost fell off my chair but got over it.  When I joined the Forum a few months ago I asked the same questions about why is this not included etc, not realizing that this question was asked probably a thousand times before by every new forum member.  And of course got jumped for it.  It took me a while to realize that at the end of the day it really does not matter what is thought of as prog here or anywhere else as regardless I or we as individuals will always form our own opinions.

Do you really think I would not sort and think of the Beatles under the same themes as the Kinks, Hollies, Stones etc in my British Pop collection and now think of them as something else because they have a listing here under Proto-Prog?

How confusing and gappy would it be if I did not have Miles, Coltrane, Monk etc sorted together under Jazz.

What about Folk do you really think I would sort Lindisfarne somewhere else or Dylan for that matter.  What would I do with all the great American bands and artists if I did not slot them next to their British friends.

So what I am trying to say is I really enjoy this site because overall it helps you find many new artists and it has a great amount of information in one place for all our convenience.  But it would be impossible for this site or any other site to adequately cover all our own opinions.

Lately when I post if I am curious about something I tend to just ask about "what do you think of this album or artist"  for opinions and thoughts on their music and that's it.
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Originally posted by Spaciousmind Spaciousmind wrote:

Originally posted by Progishness Progishness wrote:

^On a related note, ask six progheads their opinion on a contentious prog related issue, and expect 6 different forthright discussions.

See also: Rush.

Exactly it's a theory for which everyone has their own opinion.  This is a great site and a great reference but I am pretty sure we all sort our collections to suit ourselves whether vinyl's, CDs or on an MP3 player.

When I first saw the Beatles here years ago I almost fell off my chair but got over it.  When I joined the Forum a few months ago I asked the same questions about why is this not included etc, not realizing that this question was asked probably a thousand times before by every new forum member.  And of course got jumped for it.  It took me a while to realize that at the end of the day it really does not matter what is thought of as prog here or anywhere else as regardless I or we as individuals will always form our own opinions.

Do you really think I would not sort and think of the Beatles under the same themes as the Kinks, Hollies, Stones etc in my British Pop collection and now think of them as something else because they have a listing here under Proto-Prog?

How confusing and gappy would it be if I did not have Miles, Coltrane, Monk etc sorted together under Jazz.

What about Folk do you really think I would sort Lindisfarne somewhere else or Dylan for that matter.  What would I do with all the great American bands and artists if I did not slot them next to their British friends.

So what I am trying to say is I really enjoy this site because overall it helps you find many new artists and it has a great amount of information in one place for all our convenience.  But it would be impossible for this site or any other site to adequately cover all our own opinions.

Lately when I post if I am curious about something I tend to just ask about "what do you think of this album or artist"  for opinions and thoughts on their music and that's it.



We sort artists by name without using any categories. For classical music we use the names of the composers. Thus Johann Sebastian Bach and his sons and other relatives reside peacefully between B For Bang and Baden-Powell.


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And of course we have a great community here, and discussions and sharing recommendations helps not only the OP but others to explore new stuff (as for instance in my Female Prog topic).

[Yeah I might get a bit tetchy at times, but I'm just a grumpy old git these days.]
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Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

We sort artists by name without using any categories. For classical music we use the names of the composers. Thus Johann Sebastian Bach and his sons and other relatives reside peacefully between B For Bang and Baden-Powell.


I tend to do similarly with my digital music collection - a main folder for genres (e.g. Prog, Classical, New Age, Rock, Folk etc etc), and everything relevant shoved in there, without fannying around making separate folders for sub-genres. Sometimes life is just too short.
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Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:


We sort artists by name without using any categories. For classical music we use the names of the composers. Thus Johann Sebastian Bach and his sons and other relatives reside peacefully between B For Bang and Baden-Powell.

Folders in my laptop are organized by genre - prog is organized in three folders - classic prog (late 60s to late 70s), prog & related (1980s to now) and progressive metal. 

Everything else is easy to classify (rock, pop, hard rock, blues, jazz, metal etc.)


Edited by Cristi - June 08 2021 at 05:40
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I have never in my life considered ordering my cds in any way other than alphabetically. It still amazes me that people are able to do order their collection in any other way. I would never be able to find anything!  😄
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Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

I have never in my life considered ordering my cds in any way other than alphabetically. It still amazes me that people are able to do order their collection in any other way. I would never be able to find anything!  😄


My cds (300 or so) are on shelves more randomly if i may say so LOL, favorites stick out somehow LOL
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,

Hard to agree or disagree with anything here.

Until the day that "progressive music" and then "prog music" get properly defined for the music ... NOT THE SOUND ... I'm not sure that every site out there will agree on anything, and some of them were probably created as a reaction to some other site.

Great points here, Moshki!

My main concern is that the definitions out there (and here) are so out of touch with MUSIC itself, as to make things confusing and difficult. And when someone simply factors in a blue guitar or a swinging organ, and complete ignores the music that is played through those, I'm not sure that we can decide on anything except disagreement.

The main issue still will remain ... the fans and social media addicts thinking that they know it better than the actual musician that created and played the darn thing ... and as I said before that is a total disrespect for the artist, and the same goes for the soccer fans (from one country at least) booing and throwing debris at an opposing team, which is a gross disrespect for the game and how it was played!

I'm not sure artists have a clue what "style" or form of music they're creating--especially when they're trying to be different, innovative, or unique, not imitative. In these cases, it takes the listener/critic to name and categorize the new music they're hearing. I know my brothers and I could never come up with names to categorize or label the music we made; we left it up to others to do that job. We just played what we loved, what came out of our interests, limited skills, and sound and equipment choices.

What scares me the most is a society of those "who have it" and those "who don't", and of course, the ones that "don't" are the ones that pay large amounts of money to see a game, or a show somewhere. And they show their disagreement and voice their lack of judgement on the field with throwing debris, and then taking to social media to speak their views.

Another great point--which leads to the question: is prog, or has it ever been, snobby/elitist?

My only hope is that PA does not succumb to the "social media" frenzy. Already many folks here do not reply to the thread at all, and make personal comments. It's not quite water on the duck's back. For me it is more like Hemingway's line ... "dirt belongs under my feet." For this reason I do not reply to many of those comments and do not involve myself in the social media vacuum!

Good on you! Nice points!
Drew Fisher
https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/
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Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:


We sort artists by name without using any categories. For classical music we use the names of the composers. Thus Johann Sebastian Bach and his sons and other relatives reside peacefully between B For Bang and Baden-Powell.

Folders in my laptop are organized by genre - prog is organized in three folders - classic prog (late 60s to late 70s), prog & related (1980s to know) and progressive metal. 

Everything else is easy to classify (rock, pop, hard rock, blues, jazz, metal etc.)

I don't agree about "easy to classify"; there is so much music that is a mix of several genres and just can't be classified. Just look at the discussions in this forum about "Is this artist prog"?

And why does it have to be classifiable at all? All that matters is that it is good music. So we avoid the problem completely and just sort by name. It also makes it much more interesting to see the reaction when first time visitors to our house take a look at our collection.


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