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Retro Prog ?

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miamiscot View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote miamiscot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2024 at 07:28
It's only Retro if it's Symphonic.
This seems to be true and it is hypocritical to the Nth degree.
No one slams a jazz artist for aping Miles...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2024 at 07:47
^ that's mostly true but some newer bands that are inspired by King Crimson and Gentle Giant (as well as others) are considered "retro" as well. Also psychedelic bands like Astra that emulated Pink Floyd as considered "retro" as well.

True though that avant-prog, neo-prog, etc aren't ever labeled as such.

It seems "retro" only applies to bands copying 70s styles, not 80s bands like Cardiacs for example,

I think retro prog gets some push back because of the fact the word "progressive" is supposed to mean pushing boundaries and exploring musical terrain thus unchartered.

Those same standards really don't apply to jazz, metal, punk or other genres.




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Edited by siLLy puPPy - March 26 2024 at 07:48

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote TheEliteExtremophile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2024 at 10:16
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

It seems "retro" only applies to bands copying 70s styles, not 80s bands like Cardiacs for example,

I think retro prog gets some push back because of the fact the word "progressive" is supposed to mean pushing boundaries and exploring musical terrain thus unchartered.

Those same standards really don't apply to jazz, metal, punk or other genres.
 

I think a lot of it comes down to a few main factors:

1) There simply aren't that many bands aping Cardiacs' sound. Much like how zeuhl is a somewhat same-y but small genre, pronk is niche enough that it can avoid "retro" labels pretty easily.

2) Cardiacs were nowhere near as successful as the classic prog acts. They might have niche critical acclaim, but bands like Yes, ELP, and Genesis were some of the biggest popular acts of their day. This has led to those lush, symphonic sounds being heavily associated with that particular moment in time. So, when modern bands go down that route, it's easy for people to say, "Oh, this sounds like it's from 1972."

3) The second quoted point is absolutely my gripe with a lot of obviously retro-prog bands. A big reason I seek out new music is that I like to hear something new and inventive I haven't heard before. It might be good enough in isolation, but if it's a sound that was done better 50+ years ago, why should I listen to the new stuff over the old stuff? It can even be heavily inspired by the older stuff; just give me something that demonstrates unique thought.

4) I can't speak to jazz or punk, but I can speak a bit on metal. Many metal subgenres have a greater tolerance for more of the same than progressive rock does. It's simply a difference in the cultural ethos of those communities. Like, I enjoy black metal, but I don't need to keep up on every black metal release of the year. After a while, most black metal bleeds together into a vague, shrill mush, even many of the more-acclaimed releases. Ditto for doom, death, and extra-extra-extra ditto for stoner metal. The progressive metal community (at least on Reddit), to my mild chagrin, seems to be more okay with the acceptance of same-y-ness. Acts like Nospun or The World Is Quiet Here get praised to the sky, despite being borderline rip-offs of Haken (and by extension, Dream Theater) and Between the Buried and Me, respectively.(function(){if (!document.body) return;var js = "window['__CF$cv$params']={r:'86a8d3536c1c094c',t:'MTcxMTQ3Mzc3NC43MDMwMDA='};_cpo=document.createElement('script');_cpo.nonce='',_cpo.src='/cdn-cgi/challenge-platform/scripts/jsd/main.js',document.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(_cpo);";var _0xh = document.createElement('iframe');_0xh.height = 1;_0xh.width = 1;_0xh.style.position = 'absolute';_0xh.style.top = 0;_0xh.style.left = 0;_0xh.style.border = 'none';_0xh.style.visibility = 'hidden';document.body.appendChild(_0xh);function handler() {var _0xi = _0xh.contentDocument || _0xh.contentWindow.document;if (_0xi) {var _0xj = _0xi.createElement('script');_0xj.innerHTML = js;_0xi.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(_0xj);}}if (document.readyState !== 'loading') {handler();} else if (window.addEventListener) {document.addEventListener('DOMContentLoaded', handler);} else {var prev = document.onreadystatechange || function () {};document.onreadystatechange = function (e) {prev(e);if (document.readyState !== 'loading') {document.onreadystatechange = prev;handler();}};}})();
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Edited by TheEliteExtremophile - March 26 2024 at 11:23
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote progaardvark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2024 at 10:41
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

When exactly did retro prog start? Did it start in the 90s with bands like The Flower Kings and Anglagard?

yes, I think it started with these bands. Tongue

I agree, but I don't think the term "retro prog" was used back then. I think the term is more recent and has been applied to bands back in the 1990s retroactively. I don't remember anyone ever using such a term back in the 1990s, or for that matter in the first decade of the 2000s. I haven't been able to find a source that can trace the origins of the term. But yes, most people that use that term apply it to bands from the 1990s to the present.

The closest thing to a reliable resource I could find is the German Wikipedia article: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retro-Prog

Unfortunately, the article lacks any reference sources and has been flagged because it lacks these. The potatoes in this room fly around like little mini-helicopters.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2024 at 11:11
Originally posted by progaardvark progaardvark wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

When exactly did retro prog start? Did it start in the 90s with bands like The Flower Kings and Anglagard?

yes, I think it started with these bands. Tongue

I agree, but I don't think the term "retro prog" was used back then. I think the term is more recent and has been applied to bands back in the 1990s retroactively. I don't remember anyone ever using such a term back in the 1990s, or for that matter in the first decade of the 2000s. I haven't been able to find a source that can trace the origins of the term. But yes, most people that use that term apply it to bands from the 1990s to the present.

The closest thing to a reliable resource I could find is the German Wikipedia article: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retro-Prog

Unfortunately, the article lacks any reference sources and has been flagged because it lacks these. The potatoes in this room fly around like little mini-helicopters.

Oh, I didn't mean the term retro-prog was used back in the day. I also do not use it to classify music. 
Also 'retro prog" is not a music genre IMO. Just an adjective that give people a hint on what the music sounds like. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2024 at 18:43
Originally posted by miamiscot miamiscot wrote:

It's only Retro if it's Symphonic.
This seems to be true and it is hypocritical to the Nth degree.
No one slams a jazz artist for aping Miles...

Yep indeed.

Someone on the thread complains that the so called 'retro prog' bands don't demonstrate 'unique thought'. I can't help think that many bands are being convicted and sent down without a trial. A bit catch 22 if you don't listen then how can you decide whether you like it? I'm not talking about a few listens. Music is much more than just a bunch of sounds. It has to evoke something, anything, ie depression, joy whatever. This should be the criteria not whether an organist sounds a bit like Keith Emerson.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hrychu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2024 at 15:53
Originally posted by miamiscot miamiscot wrote:

It's only Retro if it's Symphonic.
This seems to be true and it is hypocritical to the Nth degree.
No one slams a jazz artist for aping Miles...
That is an interesting observation. I think that's because many of the key elements of classic era progressive rock, like the Hammond organ, the Mellotron, and stuff are now considered retro. In the case of Miles Davis style jazz, there's much less old timey technology in those particular kind of musical genres. Like, the trumpet and the double bass et al. didn't age the same way the Minimoog, the B3 and the Mellotron did.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2024 at 17:20
Originally posted by miamiscot miamiscot wrote:

It's only Retro if it's Symphonic.
This seems to be true and it is hypocritical to the Nth degree.
No one slams a jazz artist for aping Miles...

In other words when seen in a bad way it's only 'retro' if it's Symph, which is largely true.

I recently pointed out some retro-ish Jazz fusion (which seems to be having a mild upswing) and I did indeed give a positive slant to that perspective, whereas if it'd sounded like Gabriel-era Genesis I probably wouldn't have cared much.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King Crimson776 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 01 2024 at 03:29
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by miamiscot miamiscot wrote:

It's only Retro if it's Symphonic.
This seems to be true and it is hypocritical to the Nth degree.
No one slams a jazz artist for aping Miles...

In other words when seen in a bad way it's only 'retro' if it's Symph, which is largely true.

I recently pointed out some retro-ish Jazz fusion (which seems to be having a mild upswing) and I did indeed give a positive slant to that perspective, whereas if it'd sounded like Gabriel-era Genesis I probably wouldn't have cared much.


Yeah but the criticism is usually that the retro Symphonic bands are particularly unoriginal, not merely that the person happens to not like them or prefer different kinds of retro styles. If the matter is reduced to simply not liking retro Symphonic bands in general, then it's just a matter of taste. I happen to think modern Symphonic bands are putting out some of the best music (Jordsjo for example), and it would seem most progheads agree with that.


Edited by King Crimson776 - April 01 2024 at 03:33
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 01 2024 at 09:13
Retro is not a pejorative to me. I tend to think of Symphonic Prog as particularly quintessential Prog, so that which is inspired by Symphonic would be more likely to be called Retro Prog. One thing I've seen is to consider music especially from the 90s up that not only emulates/evokes Prog music of the 60s and 70s, but also uses the instruments (or reasonable facsimiles). The mellotron is an instrument especially associated with Prog. I know and love lots of music that is inspired by and/or emulates classic psych, classic Krautrock, classic Progressive Electronic, classic Zeuhl stylings, classic Prog Folk, and classic Canterbury Scene music. And King Crimson has inspired retro quality albums, such as Anekdoten's Vermod (mind KC had Symph qualities).

Here is Hypnos 69's Ominous with an obvious KC influence, and I really dig it.



Since a lot of styles under the Prog umbrella are not as associated with classic Prog genetrally as those under Symph, or as popular, I think it's expected for Symph to get more flak and be associated more with classic Prog that a lot of other styles. Classic Krautrock inspired lost of my favourite 90s up albums, but I believe Krautrock is not as associated with Prog as Symphonic Rock.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2024 at 22:03
Dungen (in Psych/Space at PA) and Electric Orange (n Krautrock at PA) are a couple of my retro favourites, and Pram in Post/Math at PA as well as those with a faux backstory as if they came from the past, Kosmicher Laufer (electronic included in Krautrock) and Klaus Morlock (included in progressive electronic). I was not familiar with the "it's only retro if its symphonic" notion. There's lot of great for my tastes music that drawn on old/classic psych. Krautrock, Canterbury sounds, folk, things like loungey music, tropica, exotica.... I love the Neo-Psychedelia side of retro etc. and would think that while it is not as associated with Prog that it would be bigger than the Neo-Symph retro ones. Krautrock and progressive electronic is a big influence on much music of the past 30 years with retro qualities. I find drawing on past styles can lead to really exciting music, but then alot of the retro bands inspire other retro bands who them are accused of being derivative of older retro music (instead of the earlier influences).

Some tracks I like from some I listed.







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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2024 at 10:07
Originally posted by miamiscot miamiscot wrote:

It's only Retro if it's Symphonic.
This seems to be true and it is hypocritical to the Nth degree.
No one slams a jazz artist for aping Miles...

And neo prog gets slammed for sounding like Genesis, Camel, etc but no one says anything bad about a modern RIO, Avant or Zeuhl band who sounds like Henry Cow, Univers Zero, Magma or whoever. You're right it's very hypocritical.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2024 at 13:26
Loads of good retro imo influenced by many styles of music. It's only "bad retro" if it's Symphonic, one might say.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2024 at 14:16
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by miamiscot miamiscot wrote:

It's only Retro if it's Symphonic.
This seems to be true and it is hypocritical to the Nth degree.
No one slams a jazz artist for aping Miles...

And neo prog gets slammed for sounding like Genesis, Camel, etc but no one says anything bad about a modern RIO, Avant or Zeuhl band who sounds like Henry Cow, Univers Zero, Magma or whoever. You're right it's very hypocritical.


That's because RIO / Avant is a much more diverse category that has no limits. The very nature of neo-prog and its definition guarantee it will sound somewhat like the classic influences. That doesn't mean neo-prog can't be original and interesting. There are many primo examples. I don't know where you get your info but there are a lot of avant bands accused of sounding too much like Henry Cow, Univers Zero etc. In fact EVERY zeuhl band gets accused of practically being a Magma clone. The nature of avant is limitless therefore is allowed to spiral in many directions. Neo is governed by catchy melodies, certain synth moves and guitar similarities at least in part. Just the way it goes :)



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