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Epignosis 
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32553 |
 Posted: April 13 2010 at 05:36 |
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It is possible to support those secular liberties without supporting gay marriage or civil unions or domestic partnerships or whatever people are calling it these days. People should be able to set up powers of attorney, default property transfers, have their hospital visits, etc., even if an intimate relationship isn't involved (suppose an unmarried man and woman lived together who were cousins and had a strong, loving but non-sexual relationship, for instance). The thing is, legislatures often do not recognize mere cohabitation, so it would be difficult to, say, revise the tax code to allow for a "Live together, filing jointly" status. I certainly do not believe, however, that children ultimately benefit from two mothers or two fathers. Children need a wonderful mother and a wonderful father, and it's a terrible shame that so many are doing without one or the other or both. Edited by Epignosis - April 13 2010 at 05:43 |
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32553 |
Posted: April 15 2010 at 10:42 |
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All right dude!
I’ve tried to condense my notes as much as possible, but this is still a lot of words! If you need sources for any of the data, I can provide those. The terms used in your post describing the events of Numbers 31 are tenuous at best: 1. Was it genocide? (No) 2. Was it murder? (No) 3. Was there rape involved? (Not according to the text) But before getting into that: Who were the Midianites? In summary, they were sheephearding nomads around the Gulf of Aqaba. They were notorious slave traders (see Genesis 37:28 where they purchased Joseph). They were also pests, preying on Israel. They were swift raiders who used camels to attack and retreat quickly. The Midianites were also in an alliance with the Moabites, who were a people from Lot’s incestuous relationship with his daughter (Genesis 19:37), and they too were a source of strife for Israel. Even though Israel posed no threat to the Moabites (except that Israel had gain a total victory over King Sihon, whose Amorites suppressed the Moabites- see Numbers 21), a paranoid king named Balak sought to have them cursed, and when Balaam, his prophet, could not curse Israel (Balaam wound up blessing Israel three times), it would appear that Balaam tries subterfuge to get Israel to turn on their God (Numbers 31:16). In Numbers 25, we read of how the Moabite and Midianite women used sex, meat, and wine to lure the men of Israel away from their families and their newly established Covenant with God and into the pagan worship of Baal-Peor. We in the present-day in the West don’t understand the gravity of this because we are individualists who tend to treat religion as a small, private matter, mostly having to do with prayer and national holidays, and we tend to think that not being dedicated to God isn’t a big deal. But Israel had just been delivered from slavery in Egypt and promised a wonderful land, and God made a great covenant with them to last for all time. And here these men chose to prostitute themselves with women who had been sent by the Midianite chieftains and Balak according to the strategy of Balaam the sorcerer. This was egregious sin, and had to be dealt with swiftly. Notice first that the judgment of God is visited upon the men of Israel- it is only six chapters later that we get to the judgment on the Midianites. It was so shameful and disgusting, the situation prompted Phinehas (grandson of Aaron) to grab a spear when he saw one of their leaders flaunting his relationship with the daughter of a Midianite chieftain (in front of Israel as they were repenting!), and he stabbed both of them, presumably while they were in the very act of copulation (and God honors Phinehas for his zealous act). This large-scale betrayal was extremely terrible. Israel had betrayed a holy covenant by choosing to worship false gods through the ruse of sex, meat, and wine. I would also argue that this treachery came as a huge blow to Moses considering that he married a Midianite woman many years before and his father-in-law Jethro (who was a priest of Midian) gave counsel to Moses and was convinced of Moses’ God being greater than all gods (Exodus 18). Now as to why the Midianites were attacked and the Moabites were effectively overlooked in this passage, this goes with God keeping his word. God would not permit Israel to take the land of the descendants of Lot (Deuteronomy 2:9), but because of the Moabite’s treachery, they were henceforth barred from fellowship with Israel (Deuteronomy 23:3-6). Now Moses sends 12,000 soldiers to make war with Midian. The soldiers kill the men, and then bring back animals and woman with them. Moses was astounded that the soldiers would bring back the very women that had deceived them- the very ones directly responsible for the reason they were at war! So Moses ordered judgment upon them. Some wonder why the young boys were killed, and rightfully so- it does offend our modern sensibilities. However, all Ancient Near Eastern civilizations knew it to be a dangerous (and probably stupid) thing to allow the sons of the enemy to dwell among them (cf., 1 Samuel 29). Perhaps Israel might have left the young boys in the wilderness alone- the children would have died of exposure, been killed by wild animals, or taken into slavery by one of the other unmerciful marauding tribes in the area. As for the virgin girls, they were safely and comfortably assimilated into Israel. Since girls were often married by age 12 (the onset of menstruation), and considering the mortality rates of the time, the average age of the girls would have probably been around five years. I should point out here that the Bible frequently shows the sins of Israel in all their atrocity throughout the years, but pedophilia was never one that was mentioned (and I’ve never seen the charge seriously made by scholars either). 32,000 virgin girls were brought back, and half were allotted to the household of the soldiers, and the other half were allotted to the community; these girls would have been raised in specific families (except the 32 who would serve in the priestly duties) and would be successfully assimilated into the twelve tribes of Israel. The plague during the incident of Baal-Peor (killing 24,000) would have provided some “headroom” for bringing in this number of people. My mind stretches to imagine a comparable scenario in the modern world, but I will try to offer an analogy to help us understand the issue: Suppose a rather large city in the United States starts forming a massive military composed of both men and women. Most of the city is in on it, and they even manage to bribe politicians and some military officials, all with the intention of overthrowing the federal government. The government reacts by activating several units and storming the city, arresting and killing many of the city’s inhabitants. This leaves thousands of children effectively parentless. You, having a generous heart and living in a nearby town, open your home to many of these children. However, you are someone of meager means, and you cannot feasibly support the 30+ children who’ve piled into your home. Very soon everyone begins to suffer, including your own family. Then one night, one of the more precocious children, angry with having witnessed the death of his insurrectionist parents but instilled with their philosophy, considers you an enemy for pledging allegiance and funding (through your taxes) the US military responsible for the death of his parents. He takes a knife from the kitchen, and comes after you and your children. Bizarre scenario, I realize, but this illustrates the grim reality of assimilating all the dependents of the enemy into a fledgling and unsettled nation. There were no state departments of child welfare, there were no adoption agencies, and there were no foster homes. We also must remember the principal of federal headship. Balak and the chieftains of Midian acted on behalf of their people and they choose poorly. They choose to conspire against the Israelites despite getting three fair warnings from Balak’s own prophet. This is huge: God does not bring forth judgment without having first offered an opportunity to repent or at least a substantial warning- I cannot think of a single exception. Some important observations: The purpose of all human life is to glorify God. God had already demonstrated this when he brought the tenth and final plague on Egypt- that of the firstborn (fittingly as a vengeance against Pharaoh for ordering the death of all male Hebrew children). The age of a sinner does not matter. As I’ve mentioned many times before, sin is who we are, not what we do. What we do is merely a symptom of who we are, and a holy God would be justified in destroying us. Many of these passages in the Bible (such as war against the Midianites, Amalekites, Canaanites, etc.) involve the killing of women and children, and this greatly upsets modern readers. But if we take the story of the great flood seriously (Genesis 6-9), then we see that God had already wiped out all people (men, women, and children) from the face of the earth, except for Noah and his family. Sin is serious, and must be accounted for somehow. When people die because of their sin, it reveals the unwavering holiness of God, and when people are saved and purified, it reveals the grace of God. Either glorifies God. God did not order Israel to go into the uttermost parts of the earth and kill all Midianites, and the sparing of the young girls shows that this incident was not, by definition, genocide, nor was it murder. It was judgment. It’s important to note that Israel endured God’s wrath first (24,000 died in the plague during the incident of Baal-Peor) before judgment was brought upon the Midianites. The “save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man” does not mean “for your pleasure,” and is certainly not a reference to rape or sexual slavery (indeed, that would have been rather silly considering the instigation of the battle in the first place). No, most likely that phrase “for yourselves” is the counterpart of “for the Lord,” the latter phrase is used when something is ritualistically destroyed or burned as an offering. Finally, on what basis do we judge any act to be evil? If God’s holiness is the only standard of morality, and His word is the law, then who are we to shake our fists? I wonder, despite what some of our friends here might argue, how in the world Richard Dawkins can express any moral outrage at the Bible since he himself wrote in River Out of Eden: A Darwinian View of Life: “If the universe were just electrons and selfish genes, meaningless tragedies [...] are exactly what we should expect, along with equally meaningless good fortune. Such a universe would be neither evil nor good in intention [...] The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind pitiless indifference.” Edited by Epignosis - February 22 2011 at 06:29 |
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dude
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: January 30 2004 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 1338 |
Posted: April 15 2010 at 21:09 |
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Thanks for this information
 i have saved this and will use it later in conjunction with other information i have found,i think with the passage of centuries we forget what and whom Israel had to deal with! i will have some more questions soon i think.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32553 |
Posted: April 16 2010 at 06:10 |
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I do hope it is helpful. I forgot to mention this, however: If you can get it, I highly recommend this book:  It is on Amazon.com Even though the title is debatable at the outset (again, it wasn't a genocide), this is one of the most helpful books in understanding passages like Joshua chapter six, where God commands Israel to destroy Jericho. It has four authors, and each of them has a different view on how the God that is presented in the Old Testament is (or is not) of the same character as the God we meet in the New Testament. The first author takes the view that God actually changed (I think- been a while since I read it), while the last author takes the view that God is the same, and the two in between have more moderate opinions. Then they use the Bible and other sources to back up their views. Each main essay is followed up by a short response from the other three authors. Excellent book.  |
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AtomicCrimsonRush
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 02 2008 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 14258 |
Posted: June 03 2010 at 05:26 |
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Hey there Epignosis I just listened to your album Still the Waters - very thought provoking
am writng a review now
what are the lyrics here?
fill in the gaps
“The evils of this world and my heart will intertwine, the stagnant heart, the stagnant mind... .. death of the Cradle...”
and what do they mean?
I am a Christian too - actually preaching A MESSAGE to my church this Sunday!
Cheers!
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TheClosing
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 11 2010 Status: Offline Points: 527 |
Posted: June 03 2010 at 21:32 |
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Well, I've been absorbed in mediocrity
Been hollowed by uncertainty I've taken all of my beliefs And given 'em up Cause there's no guarantee Of a god or longevity Admit you don't know anything And give it up Singing, I don't know if I've been reborn, Lived a past life, suffered in another time, I don't know Singing, I don't know if I've been reborn, Lived a past life, suffered in another time, I don't know Give it up, give it up, give it up Well I don't know what to believe anymore But every now and then I feel a moment of awakening But then it's gone, then it's gone, then it's gone I'm blanketed by the warmth of ignorance Singing, I don't know if I've been reborn, Lived a past life, suffered in another time, I don't know Singing, I don't know if I've been reborn, Lived a past life, suffered in another time, I don't know If I'll go somewhere special when I die If I'll go somewhere special when I die So I'll just go on living my way There's a strength in duality Penetrate mentality Give it up, give it up Learn from casualty Don't have faith in anything Give it up, give it up Singing, I don't know, no, I'll never know I'm giving up Singing, I don't know if I've been reborn, Lived a past life, suffered in another time, I don't know If I'll go somewhere special when I die If I'll go somewhere special when I die So I'll just go on living my way |
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32553 |
Posted: June 04 2010 at 05:09 |
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I preach about once a year- sometimes it goes well and sometimes it doesn't.  The lyrics you are asking about are from "Move." Here is the full line: "The evils of this world and my heart were intertwined / A stagnant heart, a stagnant mind, a stagnant hand of the confined / Blind from birth, deaf from the cradle, mute all my days/ Teach me to see and hear and speak of your ways" The verses of the song describe life prior to receiving salvation. The Bible says that sinners (all of us) are blind, deaf, mute- dead in our sin. The song also affirms that only God can make someone "Move," i.e., quicken him, make him alive. No one does anything to merit salvation- God must change him (John 6:44 says that those who will be saved are those whom God drags to Christ- that Greek word for "draw" really means "drag"). The choruses are full of typological portraits (historical metaphors) of Christ found throughout the Bible. Hope this helps. |
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32553 |
Posted: July 05 2010 at 14:09 |
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I'll go ahead and say from the beginning that all of us are bad people (Romans 3:23). Because we all do evil, none of us are fit to stand before a perfectly holy God. Only Jesus Christ can change a person's position before God. As for hell, I wholeheartedly believe the concept of eternal torture is unbiblical and was essentially imported to frighten people into converting (the word "hell" actually comes from a word meaning "a covered place," which is where we get the word "helmet," a head covering; "a covered place" sounds like the grave to me). Eschatologically, the concept makes no sense anyway. God will destroy all evil (and death, according to Revelation). He won't collect everyone in some netherworld and keep them conscious for eternity, making them feel incredible pain and suffering and anguish. What would be the point of that?  The Ancient Near Eastern people thought more in terms of honor and shame, not comfort and pain. Comfort and pain is more of a Western preoccupation. To Easterners, honor and shame is a much bigger deal (notice that the Bible never talks really about Christ's pain on the cross, but it does speak quite a bit about the shame of the ordeal). The Bible teaches that God's enemies (that is, all who do not belong to Him via Christ) will be put to shame and destroyed. John 3:16 even says that those who believe in Jesus will have "everlasting life." That would imply that those who don't believe in Jesus would not have everlasting life. So how can a person suffer in hell for eternity if they don't have everlasting life to begin with? |
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: November 18 2007 Status: Offline Points: 4900 |
Posted: July 05 2010 at 14:13 |
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(imported from the 'Religious Lyrics' thread)
The 'fallen angel' concept of Lucifer is actually a misinterpretation of existing passages in the bible. 'Satan' is actually a very inconsistent character throughout the book if viewed as one being. That kind of tells me that this apparent 'one being' reeking all the havoc is in fact not one being at all, but many beings with different attitudes and agendas. Taking these things into account, it's baffling why so many Christians actually DO believe in the mythological depiction of Satan. It's not scriptural at all, really. (If I'm wrong anywhere, Robert, feel free to clarify or correct me.) Edited by JLocke - July 05 2010 at 14:17 |
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam Joined: April 29 2006 Location: Atlantais Status: Offline Points: 29630 |
Posted: July 05 2010 at 14:24 |
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You all have it wrong. This is Seitan:
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007 Status: Offline Points: 4900 |
Posted: July 05 2010 at 14:27 |
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 Never short of a great joke, you. |
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32553 |
Posted: July 05 2010 at 14:29 |
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You've hit the nail on the head. I do not get why translators don't translate "Satan" and "Devil." It is an obvious bias on their part. If translated, you would be left with "adversary" and "slanderer," respectively. Turning them into proper names makes the passages read in ways they weren't meant to be read. However, if you check out Young's Literal Translation (something really helpful for studying the Bible), you will find "satan" is translated "adversary." Unfortunately, it is a failing that "devil" isn't translated "slanderer" or "false accuser" (John 6:70 says Jesus answered them, `Did not I choose you -- the twelve? and of you -- one is a devil. ...Obviously he's talking about Judas, but Judas was a human being...a false accusing or slanderous human being). Definition one is cool, but two requires a bias to accept. |
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam Joined: April 29 2006 Location: Atlantais Status: Offline Points: 29630 |
Posted: July 05 2010 at 14:29 |
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 Neatly packaged and labeled for your convenience... What??? no get thee back to the prog chef sections?.... Edited by Slartibartfast - July 05 2010 at 14:44 |
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007 Status: Offline Points: 4900 |
Posted: July 05 2010 at 14:37 |
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You a True Blood fan? 'Cause that totally put me in mind of the season two finale. ''WORSHIP HIM, BITCHES!!!''
Edited by JLocke - July 05 2010 at 14:40 |
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam Joined: April 29 2006 Location: Atlantais Status: Offline Points: 29630 |
Posted: July 05 2010 at 14:42 |
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I know a few things, but not True Blood. Seitan on the other hand is an interesting meat substitute unless you are allergic to wheat gluten. OK, all you Christians out there who have had experience with Seitan in this form, hold your hands up. Edited by Slartibartfast - July 05 2010 at 14:46 |
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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timothy leary
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 29 2005 Location: Lilliwaup, Wa. Status: Offline Points: 5319 |
Posted: July 05 2010 at 14:50 |
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To the closing................posting Dredgs lyrics might get this site in trouble........just saying
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jampa17
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2009 Location: Guatemala Status: Offline Points: 6802 |
Posted: July 05 2010 at 14:58 |
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Great explanation about the Devil, it's true that the image of the Devil is just a collage of different passages that has no link between them...
Now, I have a huge doubt about Rob concepto of soul. I been checking the Bible and it is mention the concept of Spirit and Soul many times. Especially on the letters of Paul, he's talking most of the time about the Holy Spirit and everything is related to it... can you explain me a little about it Rob please..? thanks...
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32553 |
Posted: July 05 2010 at 15:18 |
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It's a strange coincidence that both the Hebrew and the Greek words translated "spirit" are both words for "breath." This article shows how the Hebrew word nephesh (translated "soul" in the Old Testament) is used in other complete non-spiritual contexts. It also shows how nephesh are said only to go to graves, pits, and silence- never a place of eternal torture. |
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam Joined: April 29 2006 Location: Atlantais Status: Offline Points: 29630 |
Posted: July 05 2010 at 15:34 |
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The soul that sinneth, it shall die. I was just thinking as I read the post how interesting it is that when we breathe out in winter outside there's often that ghostly aspect to the air you exhale...  Edited by Slartibartfast - July 05 2010 at 15:35 |
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32553 |
Posted: July 05 2010 at 15:42 |
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Bah...sounds like a lot of hot air to me! |
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Slartibartfast wrote: