The Shred Room II (with extra youth)

And again, people will mention, for example, how avant-garde Freak Out! was.

But it wasn't avant-prog.

Couldn't be, it was released in 1966.  That falls outside the time horizon of what we consider to be "progressive rock".

I also own Weasels Ripped My Flesh.

Now, here's the thing gentlemen, it is the first album from The Mothers/Zappa that is actually Avant Garde enough to be called an Avant album.

Here's my problem.
If Zappa was really the 'Father of Avant', why do other artist precede him with Avant Garde music.
Not only this, but if he really was the 'Father of Avant' he would have released an Avant album much sooner than 4 years into his career.
Not only by 1966 when he was started out with the Mothers releasing albums, is Zappa already beaten to the avant garde table, but he is a further 4 YEARS too late with his first proper Avant release in 1970.
See what I mean?
Yeah, I reckon you do.

NaturalScience wrote: And again, people will mention, for example, how avant-garde Freak Out! was. But it wasn't avant-prog. Couldn't be, it was released in 1966.  That falls outside the time horizon of what we consider to be "progressive rock".

Anyone that says Freak Out!I is really avant garde simply doesn't even know what avant garde is, simple as that.
When did Prog Rock begin? Is 1969 a safe year to say?
I thought Freak Out was very innovative and clever, but it wasn't particular 'progressive' in the sense of the word describing prog rock.


Edited by HughesJB4 - January 14 2009 at 21:25

HughesJB4 wrote: NaturalScience wrote: And again, people will mention, for example, how avant-garde Freak Out! was. But it wasn't avant-prog. Couldn't be, it was released in 1966.  That falls outside the time horizon of what we consider to be "progressive rock". Anyone that says Freak Out!I is really avant garde simply doesn't even know what avant garde is, simple as that. When did Prog Rock begin? Is 1969 a safe year to say?

I think 1969 works out well.

People try to use 1967 and Piper, but I know that will rile up Dick Heath.  Everyone just called it psychedelic music.  No one used the term "progressive" as it pertains to rock music (which most everyone still referred to as "pop") until much later.

Well, the way I see it, Floyd wasn't doing progressive rock until, at the very least, their second album released in 1968, but according to many sources I've read and my own research, Prog Rock seemed to have only cemented itself properly, at the earliest, in 1969 anyway.

birdwithteeth11 wrote: Zappa is fine where he is IMO. I see avant-garde in at least bits and pieces in all of his albums, at least the 30+ I've heard.

I'm not going to get too bent out of shape about him remaining.

What bugs me are those albums displayed on the RIO/Avant page.  It's a misrepresentation and a disservice to newcomers trying to learn about music I'm very passionate about.

There was a suggestion once (a while back)  to have genre teams hand select important albums to display on genre pages, but it was shot down at the time.  I'd be all for that.

birdwithteeth11 wrote: Zappa is fine where he is IMO. I see avant-garde in at least bits and pieces in all of his albums, at least the 30+ I've heard.

That's exactly why I, and some others, feel he doesn't belong in avant, the emphasis being especially on bits and pieces of avant, but never ever being a proper full blown avant artist.

One day the tagging system may actually come in.

I've no idea why it isn't.

That way you could view tagged albums and it would show the albums in rated order as well (or I hope it would).

The tagging system we came up with in the Symphonic Team was great yet it still hasn't been implemented.

I came up with one for the RIO/avant-prog genre too... it still hasn't got anywhere.

It's tagging, so no artists get moved.

The way I envision it is as an aid to help people find what kind of music they like.

We all know avant-prog isn't the same.

If you like chamber-prog, then there would be a tag for bands that fit that sound.  Each album could be tagged too, if you want to take it that far.

I prefer tags of a descriptive nature though.

So you'd have tags like:

Henry Cow
Leg End
Style: chamber music, jazz
Sound: dissonant, rhythmic

Plus other tags.  I'm just using them as an example.  Many tags could be applied.  Each one hotlinked.  So click on chamber music and all albums with that Style Tag would be listed  in rating order.

I wouldn't hold out for a tagging system James.

James wrote: I prefer Chamber Music to Chamber Rock as a tag, personally.  Not all the avant-prog bands necessarily "rock" you see.

Exactly.

On the album level, Art Zoyd's Symphonie... has no rock elements I can detect.