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Points: 15585 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easy Livin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2007 at 04:16
I've moved your report to the discussions thread PIML, as I think it sits better there. No doubt others will have a view too. Personally, I don't think the review breaks the rule you mention. The statements he makes are harsh, but for me they do not cross the line of being insulting. We have to be careful not to be too precious and end up objecting to any criticism of an album or performer.
 
I'll see if I can get Certif1ed to join in this debate though.
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Originally posted by andu andu wrote:

It's a remarkable performance to break that many reviewing guidelines in such a short text... while being a major Collaborator:

http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=116250
 
Philippe is the best at that by far... I have a long way to go LOL
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Originally posted by progismylife progismylife wrote:

Okay I was just reading some of Certif1ed reviews (which are being discussed in the reviews discussion thread) when I came across this  http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=38193

This is not a review it is more of a bash against the band. First he starts off with "Now you've heard this, go listen to some Prog"

And near the bottom of the review he says this: "This appears to be music made by people who have heard heavy metal, liked it, wanted to do something different to impress their mates, but failed to grasp the basics of what makes a piece of music tick."

He disregarded one of the reviewing rules

4 - Write in an intelligent and considerate manner. Rude or insulting language (including blatant vulgarity) will not be tolerated! Show respect for other reviewers, readers, the artists, and the CD and song titles.
 
How dare you say I don't write in an intelligent manner!!! Tongue
 
Where is the rude or insulting language??????? Confused
 
When I say "this appears" - does that not convey a sense of "in my humble opinion"? Embarrassed
 
The opening statement is fair comment - it's not Prog. Wink
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heh. it's long been my opinion that prog metal is a genre that doesn't actually exist, yet if I was forced to give an example of it I would have chosen that very album - for having thrash steal minimalism from black metal, for progressing from the band's previous albums and for making all their thrashcore peers sound staid and regressive. oh well.

I imagine people take reviews with a pinch of salt anyway and I can't work out why there's such an outrage over yours, especially as they tend to be well explained.
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If you want a genre that doesn't actually exist it's Art Rock-- ProgMetal, on the other hand, definitely exists.. in fact it's doing rather well and I guess that bothers people. Funny.

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PAIN OF SALVATION — The Perfect Element Part 1
Review by profskett (Stephen)

5%20stars Right then. Where to start... How about... awesome!!! When I first heard a couple of PoS songs from their website it took me a while to get into it, but thank goodness I did. I had no idea what I was missing. Now that I have this album, I will definitely be investing in more music from this wonderful band.

Let's examine the reasons why I can justifiably give this album 5 stars.

Firstly, Daniel Gildenlöw's vocals are quite probably the best I've ever heard. He has got certainly the most diverse vocal capability of any singer I've heard (even some of the vocals on Ayreon's Human Equation, which are generally fantastic, don't compare) - from his beautiful mellow mid tenor range, to his soaring high notes delivered charismatically and with probably the best tone I've ever observed, then to his more aggressive metal singing which is also carried incredibly well. On top of that his pained screams (as displayed powerfully at the end of King of Loss and in Idioglossia) are truly heartwrenching, which really adds to the macabre nature of some of the lyrics. The spoken word sections may put off some listeners on the first hearing, but they certainly grew on me - adding to the 'dark and twisty' vibe in songs such as Used and Ashes in the first section of the album.

Secondly, the intelligence of the lyrics and the concept. And also, indeed, the fact that the lyrics in some places are incredibly moving. Although the album as a whole has a quite depressing feel, as it reflects all the darker sides of real-life, a lot of which is a reality for many people, it is possible to see there is hope here - especially reading some of the personal comments for each band member, it can be seen this album is not meant to throw the listener into a state of complete despair over the horrific trappings of life. It simply confronts those realities in a very powerful way.

Thirdly, the beautiful and intricately crafted songs. I promise, hearing is believing.

Posted Friday, March 30, 2007, 07:43 EST | Permanent link

He just needs some help with the bold tags
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Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Originally posted by progismylife progismylife wrote:

Okay I was just reading some of Certif1ed reviews (which are being discussed in the reviews discussion thread) when I came across this  http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=38193

This is not a review it is more of a bash against the band. First he starts off with "Now you've heard this, go listen to some Prog"

And near the bottom of the review he says this: "This appears to be music made by people who have heard heavy metal, liked it, wanted to do something different to impress their mates, but failed to grasp the basics of what makes a piece of music tick."

He disregarded one of the reviewing rules

4 - Write in an intelligent and considerate manner. Rude or insulting language (including blatant vulgarity) will not be tolerated! Show respect for other reviewers, readers, the artists, and the CD and song titles.
 
How dare you say I don't write in an intelligent manner!!! Tongue
 
Where is the rude or insulting language??????? Confused
 
When I say "this appears" - does that not convey a sense of "in my humble opinion"? Embarrassed
 
The opening statement is fair comment - it's not Prog. Wink


Okay the opening comment is not an issue, I was more talking about the latter bit.

You are blatantly saying that people who like this album are not listening to real music and using a "this is only my opinion" to hide behind. And also saying that the artist in question does not know how to make music. And that is insulting. It just ticks me off.




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Originally posted by progismylife progismylife wrote:


And near the bottom of the review he says this: "This appears to be music made by people who have heard heavy metal, liked it, wanted to do something different to impress their mates, but failed to grasp the basics of what makes a piece of music tick."

You are blatantly saying that people who like this album are not listening to real music and using a "this is only my opinion" to hide behind. And also saying that the artist in question does not know how to make music. And that is insulting. It just ticks me off.

 
That is not what I am saying - I fail to see how it's even implied.
 
Anyway, I NEVER hide behind my opinions, as many will testify Wink
 
Grasping the basics of what makes music tick is VERY different to being able to make music. Anyone can make music - there is no trick to it.
 
You do not need the former to do the latter - and I did not say or imply that Meshuggah do not know how to make music, doubt their technical abilities in execution, or imply that their fans must have a whole pack of screws loose.
 
It IS my opinion that the technical quality of the compositions on the album in question is low, however - and for this, I believe I gave ample reason - and will stand behind my opinions with more evidence and reasoning, if desired. Another thread will suffice to debate the issue on as technical a level as you wish.
 
I also stated that it's not Prog Rock - and the whole review is, as ever with my reviews, an analytical exploration of the progressive aspects of the music - in terms of Prog Rock, it's crap.
 
I'm not saying it's intrinsically terrible, but that, using my measurements (a combination of my opinion and provable fact) of what constitutes well crafted compostition as opposed to poorly crafted, it's lame.
 
I'm also not saying or implying that people who like this album are not listening to music - I'm saying that they're not listening to well-crafted Prog Music when they hear it, and that's what the 5-star rating is about.
 
And that's a fact Big%20smile


Edited by Certif1ed - March 30 2007 at 11:32
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Originally posted by inpraiseoffolly inpraiseoffolly wrote:

PAIN OF SALVATION — The Perfect Element Part 1
Review by profskett (Stephen)

Posted Friday, March 30, 2007, 07:43 EST | Permanent link

He just needs some help with the bold tags
 
Where about IPOF?
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Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Originally posted by progismylife progismylife wrote:


And near the bottom of the review he says this: "This appears to be music made by people who have heard heavy metal, liked it, wanted to do something different to impress their mates, but failed to grasp the basics of what makes a piece of music tick."

You are blatantly saying that people who like this album are not listening to real music and using a "this is only my opinion" to hide behind. And also saying that the artist in question does not know how to make music. And that is insulting. It just ticks me off.

 
That is not what I am saying - I fail to see how it's even implied.
 
Anyway, I NEVER hide behind my opinions, as many will testify Wink
 
Grasping the basics of what makes music tick is VERY different to making music.
 
You do not need the former to do the latter - and I did not say or imply that they did not know how to make music.
 
It IS my opinion that the quality of the music is extremely poor, however.
 
Or was that too subtle?


I don't mind your opinion but the way you word things is extremely aggravating. If you said that they seem to not understand music theory (or whatever thing makes music tick according to you) that would be fine but a useless addition to the review since the review is discussing the music itself not the potential of the musician to grasp music theory.  But you imply (yes imply, from the reviews of yours that I have read) that making music is a direct result of knowing what makes music tick.

"Or was that too subtle"

You are not helping your case by making derogative remarks towards me.


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Originally posted by progismylife progismylife wrote:

Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Originally posted by progismylife progismylife wrote:


And near the bottom of the review he says this: "This appears to be music made by people who have heard heavy metal, liked it, wanted to do something different to impress their mates, but failed to grasp the basics of what makes a piece of music tick."

You are blatantly saying that people who like this album are not listening to real music and using a "this is only my opinion" to hide behind. And also saying that the artist in question does not know how to make music. And that is insulting. It just ticks me off.

 
That is not what I am saying - I fail to see how it's even implied.
 
Anyway, I NEVER hide behind my opinions, as many will testify Wink
 
Grasping the basics of what makes music tick is VERY different to making music.
 
You do not need the former to do the latter - and I did not say or imply that they did not know how to make music.
 
It IS my opinion that the quality of the music is extremely poor, however.
 
Or was that too subtle?


I don't mind your opinion but the way you word things is extremely aggravating. If you said that they seem to not understand music theory (or whatever thing makes music tick according to you) that would be fine but a useless addition to the review since the review is discussing the music itself not the potential of the musician to grasp music theory.  But you imply (yes imply, from the reviews of yours that I have read) that making music is a direct result of knowing what makes music tick.

"Or was that too subtle"

You are not helping your case by making derogative remarks towards me.


 
Got me before I edited Embarrassed
 
Which derogative remarks towards you?
 
 
You're paranoid, mate.
 
That's not a slur - it's self-evident.
 
This discussion is CLOSED.


Edited by Certif1ed - March 30 2007 at 11:35
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Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Originally posted by progismylife progismylife wrote:

Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Originally posted by progismylife progismylife wrote:


And near the bottom of the review he says this: "This appears to be music made by people who have heard heavy metal, liked it, wanted to do something different to impress their mates, but failed to grasp the basics of what makes a piece of music tick."

You are blatantly saying that people who like this album are not listening to real music and using a "this is only my opinion" to hide behind. And also saying that the artist in question does not know how to make music. And that is insulting. It just ticks me off.

 
That is not what I am saying - I fail to see how it's even implied.
 
Anyway, I NEVER hide behind my opinions, as many will testify Wink
 
Grasping the basics of what makes music tick is VERY different to making music.
 
You do not need the former to do the latter - and I did not say or imply that they did not know how to make music.
 
It IS my opinion that the quality of the music is extremely poor, however.
 
Or was that too subtle?


I don't mind your opinion but the way you word things is extremely aggravating. If you said that they seem to not understand music theory (or whatever thing makes music tick according to you) that would be fine but a useless addition to the review since the review is discussing the music itself not the potential of the musician to grasp music theory.  But you imply (yes imply, from the reviews of yours that I have read) that making music is a direct result of knowing what makes music tick.

"Or was that too subtle"

You are not helping your case by making derogative remarks towards me.


 
Got me before I edited Embarrassed
 
Which derogative remarks towards you?
 
You're paranoid, mate.


What derogative remarks? AngryAngryAngry

"Or was that too subtle"

You said something very clearly and then said this remark which suggests that I cannot understand basic statements. It is an insult to my intelligence that I am unable to grasp simple ideas thus suggesting that I am stupid.


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You know if you put stuff like you are saying here like "the technical quality of the compositions on the album in question is low" I would appreciate the reviews a whole lot more and may agree with you at times.

And I am not paranoid. What makes you think that, I have no idea.

Edited by progismylife - March 30 2007 at 11:54
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I'm sorry that I came on too harshly and didn't really think things through too well. After reading your edited posts, I agree with your points but I did not get that feeling from your review. 
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Originally posted by Easy Livin Easy Livin wrote:

Originally posted by inpraiseoffolly inpraiseoffolly wrote:

PAIN OF SALVATION — The Perfect Element Part 1
Review by profskett (Stephen)

Posted Friday, March 30, 2007, 07:43 EST | Permanent link

He just needs some help with the bold tags
 
Where about IPOF?
 
The bold tags he uses are with the [ ], which works in the forums, but in the reviews, it needs < >.  So we see the [ B ] and [ /B ] (spaces added by me) in the actual review.  Click on the permanent link to see.
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Corrected! Smile
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I suppose from now on I will make sure i say "this is my opinion" followed by completely insulting the album and artists and I will be able to get away with it.

Sad that this occurs here and that there is a lack of respect. It shows not only immaturity, but stupidity.

Cert, you realize if you posted this about say, Led Zeppelin, your reviews would be edited and deleted immediately without warning because it is a high profile band. However, because it is prog metal (and lets face it, no one here respects prog metal except the people who like it) any slanderous comment is fair game.

Sad sad, how older people can be so much more childish than many of the younger members on this site.

EDIT:  Personally, this incident really questions the professionalism I thought that PA has/had.


Edited by OpethGuitarist - March 30 2007 at 14:46
back from the dead, i will begin posting reviews again and musing through the forums
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Originally posted by OpethGuitarist OpethGuitarist wrote:

Cert, you realize if you posted this about say, Led Zeppelin, your reviews would be edited and deleted immediately without warning because it is a high profile band. However, because it is prog metal (and lets face it, no one here respects prog metal except the people who like it) any slanderous comment is fair game.

 
That's nonsense Joey. When Guigo and I check the reviews, we pay no attention to the genre of the band, or indeed to who the band is. A review stands or falls on its own merits.
 
Bear in mind too, that we have a member of the prog metal team on the admin team.
 
The only issue here is that you disagree with our handling of the specific reviews. That is your prerogative, but let's not make it personal or descend to unsubstantiated allegations.
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I am worried about the many one star reviews about good bands and good albums that are flooding this site the recent weeks. Of course music is a matter of taste and of course music is subjective and of course everybody on Prog Archives has the right to make reviews but what to do with these crap reviews:
 
GENESIS — Selling England By The Pound
Review by Turion (Patrick Soucy)

1%20stars I really tried to like this band; REALLY. But EVERYTHING is just awful. Let's start with the music.

The choice of instruments is common, except for the few flute passages. The compositions are not THAT bad, but nothing really interesting. What really kills this whole band is the SOUND it makes. The cheesy keyboards, the bad sound of the drums, etc. It sounds (even though they are pioneers in the genre) really bland, uninspired and sterile. Then there is the voice, what can I say, Peter Gabriel just shouldn't sing. I can't believe people like to hear this voice, it's just beyond me.

This band is really not my cup of tea but I just don't hear what everyone else hears; there is so much better music in the world, why bother with a well known but awful band like this ? I can't give this any stars because it's so bad.

CAMEL — Mirage
Review by laplace (Hyphen Abuse)

1%20stars Yes, this album is very kitsch but to this reviewer's eyes, most of the attempted progressive experiments fail. When an interesting time signature arises, it is simply maintained for a while and then left behind, often without a satisfactory transition and never does an interesting melody get the chance to shine during such a sequence. A lot of the chord progressions are contrived and don't really make sense - that's ok, as this is progressive rock we're talking about, after all, but these experimental musical ideas are often buried underneath conventional solos which would still have fitted a traditional chord pattern.

The fact that singing is sparse and stranded on this album leaves this reviewer at a loss, as it is patently obvious that every one of these songs contains lengths which could be greatly improved by a sung melody.

All I can really say about "Mirage" is that it's more ambitious than music by most of Camel's rock contemporaries. Whether it actually capitalizes on its ambition is for you to decide; I say no.

Exit.....Stage Left (Live)

1981

Live
Review | Album details | All reviews

Review by Prog Leviathan (Jeff)
Posted 11:13:57 AM EST, 3/29/2007

1%20stars Another live album that is strictly for the fans. The recording quality is mediocre and the band itself just doesn't sound like they're putting on the best example of their sound from this era of their output. Get "Different Stages" or "Rush in Rio" first-- they have almost every song here performed with much more enthusiasm and excitement.
 
     Really poor reviews that fail to inform the progheads in a correct way because these reviews are way too subjective and in my opinion more written to provoke than to help progheads discovering the world of prog.
I don't like The Beatles but I have done my best to write some serious reviews about their famous albums, because of respect for this band I refused to nail it with one or two stars but if I look at the abovementioned reviews I miss respect or simply the good motivation to write reviews Angry
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SEBTP review submitted during last night is being checked since then, Erik.
 
Going to check also the other 2. Thanks, fellow! Smile 


Edited by Atkingani - March 31 2007 at 07:54
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