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Topic ClosedProg Rock Blasphemy from Kanye West

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Harry Hood View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2010 at 22:52
It helps that i don't consider "Schizoid Man" to be some sort of sacred cow, but I actually kind of enjoyed that. Kanye West (and/or the producer) actually do something creative with the samples while remaining true to the spirit of the original. And clearly Robert Fripp approves, as any permission to use the sample would have had to go through him, so i don't see why anyone should have a problem with it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2010 at 07:10
Originally posted by Harry Hood Harry Hood wrote:

And clearly Robert Fripp approves, as any permission to use the sample would have had to go through him, so i don't see why anyone should have a problem with it.
He actually didn't approve it. But I guess that's ok since he seems to live for the copyright lawsuits.


Edited by Henry Plainview - October 02 2010 at 07:11
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2010 at 14:40
I think its quite cool  - i just wished they had used more of the riff in the Kanye West version - i hope he samples Red next :)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2010 at 14:47
Originally posted by progvortex progvortex wrote:

Originally posted by 40footwolf 40footwolf wrote:

Originally posted by VanVanVan VanVanVan wrote:

You could look at it as blasphemy, or you could think that maybe, just maybe, some people who never would have heard King Crimson otherwise will look up the original song and get into prog. Unlikely, but possible. Stranger things have happened.

Or even be content that a modern pop artist thought that an old prog tune was good enough/appropriate material to include in a major single, keeping the music alive in the same way that sampling has done for many old soul and R&B records from the '70s. 

Or you could wail that the "integrity" of the song has been ruined, or whatever nonsense thought one pillows themselves with in order to avoid the strain of trying to understand a separate musical culture from one's own. 


Pop music is made for passive listening and quick likability. It doesn't take any straining to understand it. I get it. I don't like it.

First of all, "musical culture" is a separate thing from "music". 

Secondly, it always cracks me up when people don't realize that ANY music they enjoy is designed for "quick likability". Mr. Bungle is designed for "quick likability" to the kind of person who likes Mr. Bungle. Why do you think they were picked up by Warner Records? It's called "catering to demographics", dude, and if you think ELP, Yes and Rush didn't do it just as much as Kanye, Rihanna and Ne-Yo do now, you're fooling yourself as to how the music industry works. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2010 at 15:22
Originally posted by 40footwolf 40footwolf wrote:

  ....  It's called "catering to demographics", dude, and if you think ELP, Yes and Rush didn't do it just as much as Kanye, Rihanna and Ne-Yo do now, you're fooling yourself as to how the music industry works. 
 
With one thing ... you are comparing apples to oranges. You are comparing something done 40 years ago, with the way it is done today ... and sadly ... possibly not giving credit to musicians that do not live for the financial greed and advertising that many of these do. How, then does one credit someone like Peter Hammill ... for his work.
 
There are two kinds of people, Peter Cook and Dudley Moore once said in one of their lesser enjoyed albums ... there are whores, and then there are prostitutes ... and the difference is one gets paid for it and the other gets ripped off. I'll leave you the moral of the story and maybe one day you will read some stories that are massively sad in that area ... for every rich one like Kanye, there are 100 others that are suffering and will never get a penny at all ... and some of them wrote the very song Kanye (or someone else) sang!
 
But to simply state that everyone is a moron that is simply looking at sales and numbers ... I'm not sure you have enough respect for the arts and some of the people that barely make it all their lives ... but their hide, desire and work ... will live a lot further and appreciated a lot longer than the ego that is what many of these "popular" folks are all about.
 
The artists you mention don't have a choice on the numbers ... it's how they got there ... and to stay there they have to play the numbers game ...
 
Maybe one day you will study "art" and "artists" and realize that those people are not artists ... they really are accountants that can sing and go after the glow and the money ... and has very little to do with music, except the deception that allows you to believe in it simply because they are "famous".


Edited by moshkito - October 02 2010 at 21:19
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2010 at 15:46
Thank you for the condescension, I can always use a little bit more of that in my life. 

More to the point, I could have been clearer: I didn't mean that bands like Yes and Rush do it FOR the money, but if they weren't thought to be profitable, a record label wouldn't have picked them up in the first place. Why do you think 90125 happened? Why do you think Emerson, Lake and Palmer stopped making music for such a long time after Love Beach? How else do you even explain how ASIA came to be? Money, or a lack thereof, and an ability, or inability, to be marketable to an audience. 

I'm not saying all the great stars of rock, R&B and what have you aren't artists with talent, integrity and a drive to create. I'm simply saying that they're artists that can be, and are, exploited for pulling sales among the music consuming public. Even a record label as noble and avant-garde as Ipecac has to look at who they're selling to. And if you can't be sold, you either go into self-publishing, you start up your own label or you do something else to make money. Period. 


Edited by 40footwolf - October 02 2010 at 15:47
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2010 at 16:59


Tongue

Edited by Anirml - October 02 2010 at 16:59
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2010 at 17:02
Originally posted by 40footwolf 40footwolf wrote:

Originally posted by progvortex progvortex wrote:

Originally posted by 40footwolf 40footwolf wrote:

Originally posted by VanVanVan VanVanVan wrote:

You could look at it as blasphemy, or you could think that maybe, just maybe, some people who never would have heard King Crimson otherwise will look up the original song and get into prog. Unlikely, but possible. Stranger things have happened.

Or even be content that a modern pop artist thought that an old prog tune was good enough/appropriate material to include in a major single, keeping the music alive in the same way that sampling has done for many old soul and R&B records from the '70s. 

Or you could wail that the "integrity" of the song has been ruined, or whatever nonsense thought one pillows themselves with in order to avoid the strain of trying to understand a separate musical culture from one's own. 


Pop music is made for passive listening and quick likability. It doesn't take any straining to understand it. I get it. I don't like it.

First of all, "musical culture" is a separate thing from "music". 

Secondly, it always cracks me up when people don't realize that ANY music they enjoy is designed for "quick likability". Mr. Bungle is designed for "quick likability" to the kind of person who likes Mr. Bungle. Why do you think they were picked up by Warner Records? It's called "catering to demographics", dude, and if you think ELP, Yes and Rush didn't do it just as much as Kanye, Rihanna and Ne-Yo do now, you're fooling yourself as to how the music industry works. 


Obviously the music industry makes music that caters to its demographic, in the cases of Rihanna and Rush alike. My problem isn't with the record company for wanting to make money by reacting to its demographic. My problem is with the demographic, which wants music that's shallow and likeable, but don't understand that there's more to music than quick likability. These people want music fed to them, as opposed to an experience that must be sought out. In the early 70's, record comapnies were still catering to the demographic, but the demographic demanded music that you had to actively listen to and approach as an artform, not a commodity. The shift in demographic is undesirable.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2010 at 17:10
Originally posted by progvortex progvortex wrote:

Originally posted by 40footwolf 40footwolf wrote:

Originally posted by progvortex progvortex wrote:

Originally posted by 40footwolf 40footwolf wrote:

Originally posted by VanVanVan VanVanVan wrote:

You could look at it as blasphemy, or you could think that maybe, just maybe, some people who never would have heard King Crimson otherwise will look up the original song and get into prog. Unlikely, but possible. Stranger things have happened.

Or even be content that a modern pop artist thought that an old prog tune was good enough/appropriate material to include in a major single, keeping the music alive in the same way that sampling has done for many old soul and R&B records from the '70s. 

Or you could wail that the "integrity" of the song has been ruined, or whatever nonsense thought one pillows themselves with in order to avoid the strain of trying to understand a separate musical culture from one's own. 


Pop music is made for passive listening and quick likability. It doesn't take any straining to understand it. I get it. I don't like it.

First of all, "musical culture" is a separate thing from "music". 

Secondly, it always cracks me up when people don't realize that ANY music they enjoy is designed for "quick likability". Mr. Bungle is designed for "quick likability" to the kind of person who likes Mr. Bungle. Why do you think they were picked up by Warner Records? It's called "catering to demographics", dude, and if you think ELP, Yes and Rush didn't do it just as much as Kanye, Rihanna and Ne-Yo do now, you're fooling yourself as to how the music industry works. 


Obviously the music industry makes music that caters to its demographic, in the cases of Rihanna and Rush alike. My problem isn't with the record company for wanting to make money by reacting to its demographic. My problem is with the demographic, which wants music that's shallow and likeable, but don't understand that there's more to music than quick likability. These people want music fed to them, as opposed to an experience that must be sought out. In the early 70's, record comapnies were still catering to the demographic, but the demographic demanded music that you had to actively listen to and approach as an artform, not a commodity. The shift in demographic is undesirable.

I actually agree with you-I have a very hard time speaking to people who don't process music as art but see it only as entertainment. But that said, I don't think the answer is to write off pop/radio friendly music entirely, since there'll always be merits worth exploring in every genre. The best R&B artists tend to take influence from a variety of genres-Chris Brown's latest album Graffiti has absolutely deplorable lyrical content, being mostly about how people should feel bad for him because he's become an outcast since beating up his girlfriend, but the actual music itself is superb, taking inspiration from everything from new wave to Philadelphia Soul right down to the Cure. It's never as clear cut as "all of X genre is bad", because that simply isn't true-music is in a constant state of change from all areas, even areas that you may not particularly enjoy. 

That's why I think "blasphemy" is such an absurd thing to say in this context, since no musical genre is "sacred" and every genre of music SHOULD pull influence from every other genre. That's how you keep things fresh, by borrowing and innovating.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2010 at 17:47
As an aging pro musician I will guarantee you that Mr Fripp is tickled pink that his little musical segment is back on the radio.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2010 at 18:01
I thought the girls were pretty cool.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2010 at 18:34
hawfull version, he's laughing at all the idealists in the  70's...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2010 at 21:17
Originally posted by 40footwolf 40footwolf wrote:

Thank you for the condescension, I can always use a little bit more of that in my life. 

 
It wasn't intended as such towards you at all ... it was more intended to show a massive difference in the type of artists and musicians out there. Which it appears you just went on to clarify even better.
 
Unlike others, I don't enjoy sitting here and trying to cut down people that don't deserve it, and are trying their best to express themselves. Or worse ... troll the threads with chatter as a way to break up the parts of the thread that DO mean something.
 
My apologies if that came out incorrectly. -- unlike the other folks here who are more interested in insulting others than they are in making a valid comment about the subject matter itself.
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2010 at 21:27
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by 40footwolf 40footwolf wrote:

Thank you for the condescension, I can always use a little bit more of that in my life. 

 
It wasn't intended as such towards you at all ... it was more intended to show a massive difference in the type of artists and musicians out there. Which it appears you just went on to clarify even better.
 
Unlike others, I don't enjoy sitting here and trying to cut down people that don't deserve it, and are trying their best to express themselves. Or worse ... troll the threads with chatter as a way to break up the parts of the thread that DO mean something.
 
My apologies if that came out incorrectly. -- unlike the other folks here who are more interested in insulting others than they are in making a valid comment about the subject matter itself.
 
 

It's all good, things get lost in translation over the internet all the time. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2010 at 21:33
Originally posted by progvortex progvortex wrote:

  .... My problem isn't with the record company for wanting to make money by reacting to its demographic. My problem is with the demographic, which wants music that's shallow and likeable, but don't understand that there's more to music than quick likability.....
 
I think that sometimes the demographics are made simply to create a concept or idea. If you look around and ask the same question to the first 20 people you see that cross your path, the number is probably less than half of that demographic ... it is bloated.
 
I do think, in a funny, paranoic sort of way, that some record companies, are also owned (or vice versa) by the same conglomerates that the media they represent, so inventing information to prove their point is necessary ... and the main issue here is ... is it true, and I don't think those statistics are anywhere near true.
 
In the end it's like seeing the big numbers of millions each movie brought in ... it's how they tell themselves that something is "good" and guarantee they can take in more money ... that most people are going to say ... well, if everyone is seeing it we have too, kind of mentality.
 
Quote ... These people want music fed to them, as opposed to an experience that must be sought out. In the early 70's, record comapnies were still catering to the demographic, but the demographic demanded music that you had to actively listen to and approach as an artform, not a commodity. The shift in demographic is undesirable.
 
The real truth of this, I believe, is that in the 70's a lot of people found out that you did not need the record company, and you could OWN your own material ... this was on account of the media and information finally getting around, to what otherwise was an unsuspecting artist ... though the history of rip-offs, even by that time were many, but that artist would be dead in the media because no record company was going to touch them.
 
It was one of the things that Bill McIntyre had been trying to get (just to give you an idea of when) make their own company and record their own stuff instead of signing with Columbia ... who, more than likely, never gave them a proper accounting of sales, and that was that. This was The Firesign Theatre, and the first example of this I ever heard. And of course,, you probably don't know that Gong/Daevid Allen are still in court with the Mr. Big colorful balls in the sky, something that others might also have done but have not said as much, like Mike Oldfield, or Tangerine Dream.
 
In the 90's the Internet made the change possible ... you could now create your own presence and you were no longer dependent on a record company to do you the favor and take your money ... in essence, anyone having to live by a record contract these days ... is a puppet to the machinery ... and the only ones that aren't are the major ones that can call their price, the Eltons, the Madonnas and such.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2010 at 22:32
Awful
It isn't even sampled well


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2010 at 22:44
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Hopefully it wins a Grammy and Fripp can run up on stage and interupt Kanye's speech.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2010 at 22:50
cant we sue him?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2010 at 22:51
Originally posted by manofmystery manofmystery wrote:

Awful
It isn't even sampled well

The low-fi quality is on purpose so that it sounds like a classic 'sample' from the early days of sampling, that's called nuance.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2010 at 22:59
I think it´s pretty clever in a plastic kind of way.
I miss the feel of real instruments in modern hip hop. Everything has to be about bling, tits, cars and powertrips - makes me wanna hurl my fries. I have no problem with samples in hip hop - the whole genre was basically created musically through them - but if people here feel it´s blasphemy, whatever that means in music - they should definitely check Scissor Sister´s take on Comfortably Numb and prepare for a meaningless slaughter of a song who really shouldn´t be messed with. This, however is allright and I hope hip hoppers and alike all around are getting into Crimson and freestyling to Fractured or Lizard..  
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