Symphonic metal and prog

sleeper wrote: "Prog" is a very subjective term as it is anyway and no one has an adequate definition for it. In general it just seems to be excepted that we all agree on who the original prog bands are and work from their to come to our own conclusions of what constitutes prog, and I'm not going to try to put mine into words, I just know it when I hear it.   There's also the problem that a band can be progressive without being Prog, and the example of Burzum is a good ( I've never actully heard Burzum so I ant comment to much here, the rest of the team rejected him before I found something to listen to and make my decision), and that you can be Prog without being progressive (The Flower Kings for example).   Metal did grow up alongside prog, and a number of those early metal bands did follow some sort of prog leaning, but its overall a seperate genre and should remain so (there's another can of worms right there, lets not open that one).

Ok, I can't open than can of worms, but in my honest opinion I would love to see a prog&metal archives site. I think that is a very unique opinion though .  It seems that in prog metal "prog" is an even more subjective term than it normally is. Perhaps it seems arbritrary to me because I'm not familiar enough with the original prog metal bands to follow their line of influence and determine what prog metal actually is. I grew up listening to just plain metal, and it seems that people who approach metal from a prog perspective see it differently. For me, prog metal was all those bands like dream theater, and bands that were in different genres were not prog metal. However, here, it seems like if a metal band is progressive and also technical but not too what metalheads call "kult," it is added.

For example, Death to me was always a death metal band, at one point just plain death metal and at another point technical death metal with crazy creative riffs, but never really progressive except maybe the album "human." It is really confusing trying to look at metal with a prog perspective after spending my youth looking at it from a metal perspective. I'm glad to see that prog and metal are getting more and more reconciled these days, because they really are related genres.

rogerthat wrote: I did read that post but, for better or worse, Nightwish are here and who's to say the "If X is here, Y should be" strawman won't be used to propose more bands like Nightwish to be added here?  I agree with you and Nuke that Divine Conspiracy is a step in a different direction but the Epica bio does not even mention it, which led me to conclude that they were here because of the first two albums and in which case, I disagree.  Those two albums are no more prog metal than Nightwish...or Iron Maiden.  I know Iron Maiden are under prog related but it seems to me that that is simply the case because they are a popular metal band because I cannot see why Powerslave-SSOASS and the three new albums with Bruce are less progressive than a lot of bands classified under prog metal here.

Well epica has always worked in the direction. Even their first album incorporated orchestral elements heavily into their sound. Their second album had Consign to Oblivion on it, which couldn't have worked any other way except with the big symphonic sound, and most of their songs were infused with strong soundtrack infuences.  It's just that their most recent album is the most obvious in this element, not that this element didn't exist beforehand. I couldn't call their first album more progressive than nightwish, but I could say that about their second.

sleeper wrote: Prog related tends to be for acts that werent/arent quite prog but are more than average commercial rock or for bands that had a huge impact on large number of progressive groups. I dont know whether its still the case but side projects/solo work that wasnt  prog from members of prog rock bands was also put in there.   Nightwish for the most part are streight up goth/symphonic/power metal band with the occaisonal branch out to more adventourus teratory and even the odd prog song, but no single album that could be considered wholy prog.

Now that I actually know what prog related is for, my original argument seems quite stupid 

I never thought Nightwish's early work was prog, but after listening to Once several times, it seems if you ignore the singles it is quite progressive and not straight up at all. I don't know about their new album though since I haven't heard it. I can't say I have a qualified opinion on them at all because of my limited experience with them, but the album Once seemed really prog to me, at least as wholy prog as other established prog albums on here which also include the odd hit singles. I know it's kind of pointless arguing since they are already on here, it's just interesting to hear the viewpoint that they aren't prog.