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Topic ClosedLearning guitar and music theory on my own

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Negoba View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2009 at 09:58
There is an important thing about modes for guitarists. They represent shapes that the mind memorizes and it really aids in fretboard memorization and figuring out how diatonic chords fit together. And it allows us to not have to worry about sharps and flats. Sometimes people confuse those shapes with what the modes actually mean. C major in open position looks like the Phrygian shape. Whether you call it  C major/Ionian, A minor/Aeolian, E Phrygian of course depends on the harmonic circumstances of the song.
 
I use very little theory when writing music, but I use it all the time when learning other people's music, especially when trying to figure it out by ear.
 
BTW, I've learned plenty of theory from guitar teachers, and since the basics are well basic, that part was fine. Harder stuff, yeah, you need to go to other sources. My best teacher was a piano professor who was a friend of mine who gave me lessons for part of a semester as a non-piano major. For the first time I really got the intimate relationship of melody and harmony, and yes one of the many music flowers opened for me.
 
You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2009 at 09:40
Originally posted by Trademark Trademark wrote:

Ahh guitarists and their precious modes.  No one else wastes more than a few days on them except guitarists (and I unfortunately must include myself here)  who insist on spending years discovering how truly useless most of them really are. 

Whether you learn music theory on your own or from a teacher will depend on how you (as an individual) learn best.  Some of us need a kick in the pants, or the pressure of an upcoming lesson to keep our noses to the grindstone, others are more self-motivated.  But keep in mind that the minute you learn how to play a G chord you've learned a piece of music theory.  When you figure out that G, C, & D go together really well, you've learned more theory.  When you figure out why the drummer clicks his sticks 4 times before you all start playing you've got a bit more.  The notion that you can "mess around and let your feelings guide you" is just a pile of crap.  What you actually do as you mess around is learn theory, whether you decide to call it that or not.

I feel some obligation to insert here a proper description of what music theory really is, before someone goes off on "composing according to rules" etc.  Music theory has never been (apart from some serilaists of the 1950s and 1960s) a set of rules for what you can and can't do.  What music theory is, is a description of what composers have already done, and what was generally accepted to have "sounded good" to that particular generation of composers.  That's why it keeps changing.

As an example (as well as an interesting story), during the Baroque Era (1600-1750) it was generally accepted that you should not write diminished fifths in music.  It's a very dissonant interval (the opening notes of "Black Sabbath" if I remember an example) and folks thought is sounded so bad they nick-named it "the devil in music".  Now Antonio Vivaldi, as a Baroque composer knew this and like other composers of his time avoided that interval, but in the original handwritten manuscript of the Gloria of his Mass in D major there happens to be one.  Did he really mean for it to be there, or was it a mistake?  Most editors who print the score for sale "correct" this note because it is the only diminished fifth in all of Vivaldi's 600+ concertos and 40 operas AND its in a mass where you wouldn't, as a priest, stick "the devil in music".  They look at the practice of the time and understand howe unlikely it is that Vivaldi would not have done that on purpose.

No composer I have ever met thinks specifically about theory when writing music. It's not even discussed in formal composition lessons unless the student brings it up.   We use what we have learned in a subconscious way, or as Nero Wolfe puts it with "experience guided by intelligence".  If you want to learn to play the guitar, do it any way that works for you.  There are plenty of truly remarkable guitarists with horrible technique and little or no formal training.  But, if you want to learn about MUSIC, go to the local community college and take a couple of semesters of theory.  Under no circumstances should you trust a guitar teacher to teach you theory!!!!  They are, as a rule of thumb, the worst theorists in the known world.  It would be the equivalent of trying to get training as a gourmet chef from a McDonalds fry cook.   

Learning music theory will change the way you play, change the way you write, and even change the way you listen to music, and that will help you get where you want to go.  Music will open up like a flower in front of your eyes.

A flower?!....


 
I suppose that is what I am doing, then? I've only once willingly looked up a lesson on music theory; otherwise I've just slowly discovered stuff on my own. Right now, during my songwriting process, I have been slowly beginning to grasp time signatures. They always confused me before when I was told by someone else what the number on top meant in relation to the one underneath it, but now that I can just experience it for myself as I write, it's becoming very clear; even I can't describe it exactly in words.
 
Gabriel referance?
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Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2009 at 09:48
Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

There is an important thing about modes for guitarists. They represent shapes that the mind memorizes and it really aids in fretboard memorization and figuring out how diatonic chords fit together. And it allows us to not have to worry about sharps and flats. Sometimes people confuse those shapes with what the modes actually mean. C major in open position looks like the Phrygian shape. Whether you call it  C major/Ionian, A minor/Aeolian, E Phrygian of course depends on the harmonic circumstances of the song.
 
I use very little theory when writing music, but I use it all the time when learning other people's music, especially when trying to figure it out by ear.
 
BTW, I've learned plenty of theory from guitar teachers, and since the basics are well basic, that part was fine. Harder stuff, yeah, you need to go to other sources. My best teacher was a piano professor who was a friend of mine who gave me lessons for part of a semester as a non-piano major. For the first time I really got the intimate relationship of melody and harmony, and yes one of the many music flowers opened for me.
 



In the end it boils down to a simple thing: being able to know how some note on the fretboard will sound in the context of the song/backing track that's currently playing. Doesn't matter mch whether you reach that level by practicing scales/modes or simply by jamming around - but I'd like to think that scales/modes can help you to get there faster.Smile
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Petrovsk Mizinski View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 06 2009 at 01:46
Originally posted by Trademark Trademark wrote:

Ahh guitarists and their precious modes.  No one else wastes more than a few days on them except guitarists (and I unfortunately must include myself here)  who insist on spending years discovering how truly useless most of them really are. 

Whether you learn music theory on your own or from a teacher will depend on how you (as an individual) learn best.  Some of us need a kick in the pants, or the pressure of an upcoming lesson to keep our noses to the grindstone, others are more self-motivated.  But keep in mind that the minute you learn how to play a G chord you've learned a piece of music theory.  When you figure out that G, C, & D go together really well, you've learned more theory.  When you figure out why the drummer clicks his sticks 4 times before you all start playing you've got a bit more.  The notion that you can "mess around and let your feelings guide you" is just a pile of crap.  What you actually do as you mess around is learn theory, whether you decide to call it that or not.

I feel some obligation to insert here a proper description of what music theory really is, before someone goes off on "composing according to rules" etc.  Music theory has never been (apart from some serilaists of the 1950s and 1960s) a set of rules for what you can and can't do.  What music theory is, is a description of what composers have already done, and what was generally accepted to have "sounded good" to that particular generation of composers.  That's why it keeps changing.

As an example (as well as an interesting story), during the Baroque Era (1600-1750) it was generally accepted that you should not write diminished fifths in music.  It's a very dissonant interval (the opening notes of "Black Sabbath" if I remember an example) and folks thought is sounded so bad they nick-named it "the devil in music".  Now Antonio Vivaldi, as a Baroque composer knew this and like other composers of his time avoided that interval, but in the original handwritten manuscript of the Gloria of his Mass in D major there happens to be one.  Did he really mean for it to be there, or was it a mistake?  Most editors who print the score for sale "correct" this note because it is the only diminished fifth in all of Vivaldi's 600+ concertos and 40 operas AND its in a mass where you wouldn't, as a priest, stick "the devil in music".  They look at the practice of the time and understand howe unlikely it is that Vivaldi would not have done that on purpose.

No composer I have ever met thinks specifically about theory when writing music. It's not even discussed in formal composition lessons unless the student brings it up.   We use what we have learned in a subconscious way, or as Nero Wolfe puts it with "experience guided by intelligence".  If you want to learn to play the guitar, do it any way that works for you.  There are plenty of truly remarkable guitarists with horrible technique and little or no formal training.  But, if you want to learn about MUSIC, go to the local community college and take a couple of semesters of theory.  Under no circumstances should you trust a guitar teacher to teach you theory!!!!  They are, as a rule of thumb, the worst theorists in the known world.  It would be the equivalent of trying to get training as a gourmet chef from a McDonalds fry cook.   

Learning music theory will change the way you play, change the way you write, and even change the way you listen to music, and that will help you get where you want to go.  Music will open up like a flower in front of your eyes.

A flower?!....



While I can agree with a what of lot you said in this post.
When I improvise, obviously I don't have the time to apply musical mathematics to a performance.
Sometimes I might hit a wrong note over a chord progression, but chances are the audience wont really care unless they're a musician, and indeed, I think it's the best approach to never consciously apply music theory when your compose music or improvise. I feel the whole point is that you learn what is it you need to know inside out backwards, so by the time you need to use it, you never consciously think about what you're doing and it just comes out.

"The notion that you can "mess around and let your feelings guide you" is just a pile of crap.  What you actually do as you mess around is learn theory, whether you decide to call it that or not."

I absolutely agree 100 per cent with those 2 lines.

"Ahh guitarists and their precious modes.  No one else wastes more than a few days on them except guitarists (and I unfortunately must include myself here)  who insist on spending years discovering how truly useless most of them really are. "

Maybe for you, a waste of time, but myself, this was the fasted and easiest way I learnt how to make the connection between chords and scales in each key and it helped my improvisation immensely.
I tried other methods and just couldn't do it as quickly any other way. Maybe other people had different experiences, I don't know, but It worked for me, and I don't think there is anything wrong with my approach and indeed, since it did work for me, I don't feel that I wasted a minute learning modes.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 06 2009 at 11:00
Totally newbie question , I know it may sound weird but can't you break your strings while practicing bending or reverse bending with an acoustic guitar???
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 06 2009 at 14:24
If you do you just buy more.

It is physically possible, I suppose, but bending shouldn't really break strings.  If can happen if the strings are really old and have deteriorated from lots of sweat and finger crud.  There are corrosives in your sweat that will make the strings more susceptible to breakage, but your ears will tell you its time for a nice, bright-sounding new set of strings long before you get to breakage territory.

I do remember back in High School ('75 ish) I had an old  single P-90,  double cutaway, red LP Jr. that broke strings at the bridge constantly (didn't know how to fix it at the time) and I used to leave the ends nice and long at the peghead so that when they broke I could save the ball end and tie the rest of the string back through.  I could re-tie strings three or four times before I needed to buy another.  It was then I discovered that you could buy strings one at a time at the music store counter if you knew enough to ask.  LOL  Cheap b*****d.


Edited by Trademark - March 06 2009 at 14:28
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 06 2009 at 20:28
^What Trademark said really.
At the absolute most, I keep my strings on for 2 weeks, because anything longer than that, and the tone starts getting pretty dull and bending becomes harder due to the muck that has formed on the strings at that stage.
Back in the day when I was a cheap bugger that rarely changed my strings often, I kept them on for 6-8 weeks and only then would strings start breaking from bends/wide vibrato.
Generally, if you do change your strings as often as me yet still break strings, something is likely to be wrong with your technique, because strings should easily last at least 3 weeks under normal playing circumstances.
Generally, for normal nickel steel strings, depending on how corrosive your sweat is, you want to be changing them every 1-3 weeks.
Although the initial cost is higher, buy some EIixir strings with the polyweb/nanoweb coating, which last about 5 times longer before they become cruddy looking, so you can change your strings every 6-8 weeks and you may eventually save money in the long run that way.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 06 2009 at 20:55
Two words: raw determination. If you want to learn an instrument, all it takes is time and effort. Start off with easy stuff, simply work your way through harder and harder things until you find your footing as a musician. Best advice I can give on that is to not be intimidatedby a piece of music to learn, just work it out bit by bit.

As for learning techniques, I teach myself stuff by ear (aside from the classical shizzle which I obviously read the music for). Personally I think by ear is the best way, because it also makes you better at playing in bands etc...

Off topic slightly: Harry, you can play Buckethead??? My God Put some solos on youtube man Can you play the solo to Serenity Painted Death?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 14 2009 at 00:12
Originally posted by p0mt3 p0mt3 wrote:

http://justinguitar.com/ 
 
Great site, thanks! Thumbs UpBig smileClap
 
I found this one useful:
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 14 2009 at 14:46
I've been trying (on and off over the last 20-odd years!!!!!) to learn something of music theory. I've been steered towards...
 
 
Hope it helps.
 
Trapper John McIntyre
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2009 at 04:50
It is great,
And you will suceed .
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
/admin edit: de-spammed.


Edited by Dean - April 21 2009 at 08:12
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2009 at 05:38
^What random first post by a newbie, lmao.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2009 at 08:01
Why do so many people spell 'Succeed' the wrong way? I don't get it . . .
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Vompatti View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2009 at 08:37
Beets me.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2009 at 09:08
^^ that's definately a serious problem.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2009 at 09:33
Hey, I told you guys. I'm weird when it comes to spelling. I mispell sh*t all the time, but for some reason it only bothers me when someone else does it.
 
Maybe I should join a twelve-step program . . .
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2009 at 09:34
Originally posted by Vompatti Vompatti wrote:

Beets me.
 
Damn you! *spits on ground and spins*
 
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