ELO is not prog?

ivan_2068 wrote: bluetailfly wrote: salmacis wrote: I've never been a particular fan of theirs- some songs are decent, 'Mr Blue Sky', 'The Diary Of Horace Wimp' I like- but anyway, their music doesn't stand out as prog, rather more pompous pop. I'm glad to see that a few others have some problems with the 'prog related' idea; to me, this could open the spectrum a little TOO much- even artists like Elton John, Stevie Wonder, maybe even (gulp) Hall and Oates could be considered 'prog' related as they made concept albums, but I'm doubtful anybody here would call any of these acts 'prog rock' (at least I hope not). "Pompous pop" -- what does that mean? Sounds like many of the charges levelled against prog. In terms of arrangement, ELO is progressive IMO, moreso than some bands already accepted as prog. And remember, ELO started out with a mission to push pop rock into more psychedelic and untried territory; they were not a blues-based rock band that decided to make a few concept lps (like Pretty Things or The Who). And they (and Lynne in particular) has achieved this. I think a reassessment of ELO is in order. Too many old timers like Ivan have already made up minds about this and cannot seem to entertain a different perspective. We need another forum debate on this. Yes, I made already my mnind, at least five times some people have asked for ELO and five times have been rejected, enough is enough, they haven't released moire material to at least have an excuse to try again. And honestly I'm tired of intelligent arguments like well Radiohead is here, so ELO deserves to be, or Queen also, so why not ELO. This is absurd, I don't believe Queen or Radiohead should be here (even when Queen are closer than ELO IMHO) and many metal bands have no relation with Prog', but one mistake doesn't allow us to make another one, two wrong choices don't make a good one. If there are bands that don't deserve to be here, ok, it's a mistake, but don't use this as an excuse to make another even worst. ELO was a ROCK band with orchestral (Not Progressive) arrangements (James Last and Ray Conniff had Orchestral arrangements also and nobody except some lunatic would say they are Prog), and to make more clear their mainstream orientation they abandoned Rock and embraced Disco, the structure of their songs is oriented towards Rock or Disco and not towards Prog. A friend told me Rockaria was Prog'  Yes, they had a guy that could make the voice of an Opera Prima Donna and the song has lots of violin and cellos, but it's nothing except plain Rockabilly. But they had their chance and the majority decided, so lets move on. Iván

I appreciate the response, but I would disagree with the comment that "ELO was a ROCK band with orchestral (Not Progressive) arrangements." This is what I specifically disagree with, as I said in my earlier post. ELO was never a "rock band." From the start, they took rock structures and pushed into different directions -- that was what Lynne set out to do. In fact, I think he said something like, 'ELO has picked up where "I am the Walrus" left off." That sounds like a rather progressive vision, esp. for the early 70s.

As for Queen being more prog than ELO, I disagree with that because Queen is primarily a rock band. They started out as a rock band and they stayed true to it most of the time (which is great; I love Queen).

As for the ELO / disco connection, I don't believe ELO made disco music. I think the music got caught up in the disco craze, much as a lot of music today is remixed in techno format.

The bottom line is, I don't believe many members have really familiarized themselves with all of ELO's ouvre (especially the early lps) and so cannot meaningfully comment upon it. The forum needs a discussion with members who are familiar with all of ELOs output so that an informed debate can begin.

bluetailfly wrote: As for the ELO / disco connection, I don't believe ELO made disco music. I think the music got caught up in the disco craze, much as a lot of music today is remixed in techno format.

I disagree but respect all your points of view, but PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Discovery (A play of words for VERY DISCO) and Xanadu were released by ELO, this are clear and evident DISCO albums, so ELO made Disco music.

They didn't remixed old songs in Disco beat, they created 100% Disco albums with 100% of new and original Disco songs and the last album was the soundtrack of a Disco Movie with the Disco star Olivia Newton John, that's a fact that nobody can deny.

Still I feel they were first a Rock band and then a Disco band.

Micky wrote:

Ivan-  the obvious difference in your example, with James Last and Ray Conniff,  is that  ELO were considered 'in the day' a prog group.

Considered Prog by whom? Even though I'm not an old timer as someone said (I'm only 41), I WAS THERE AT THE LATE 70's, nobody told me stories,. ELO was always a commercial band that was played all day long in commercial radios and no Proghead ever considered them Progressive, innovative maybe, but Prog, never.

Iván

BTW: I hacve each and every ELO album sinces their debut until Discovery, being the last one the only I regret about, I like their music but don't believe it's Prog.

micky wrote: Ivan, I know you have them all, I remember accusing you of having not heard them first time we talked about this ha hahah ha.   I do respect your opinion,  and also applaud you for being so....consistant in your standards You wanted to say stubborn, and I admit it.   I don't agree with many of the acts that are listed here either. In fact much of what you say may be true, but I believe you are overanalyzing it. Well, I always believed that Prog music needs to be analyzed, that's one of the main reasons why paople take so much time to fall in love with Progressive albums.  The progressive movement sprung out of the desire to move rock music out of the contraints of blues-based, guitar driven rock.  That is bit simplistic I know, but on the mark I think generally.  It was a movement, and ELO was without a doubt in that movement. Not IMO, I still believe they tried to make Rock & Roll with orchestral instruments, nothing more, sadly they fell in the cheepest genre possible back in the late 70's (Disco). BTW: I believe that Prog is much more than just moving from blues based Rock.  I'm the same age as you, was there in the late 70's as well,  my parents and my older brothers were really into prog back then and considered them prog. Just talked to Mom about that the other day (still loves ELO )  I still love ELO, but don't believe they are Prog Have friends who are a tad older and consider ELO prog, I know it's unscientific, but lends me to believe that amoung those who were active or interested in the scene at that time, that ELO was considered to be part of the English progressive movement. Honestly, nobody I know consider them Progressive, some say they had a couple Prog' moments, but I don't.

Iván

Nope, if you ask 10 people you'll get 100 different answers, because most of them will  change answers several times.

I could try a very elaborate answer, but I done it before in several threads, so I just try something as simple as your deduction. If you doubt, probably it isn't Prog', in this case most of the members here doubt.

Iván

I agree with Ivan and Cert on this point. As far as I know ELO were never considered Prog! Also I know of no one who considers them prog. I also agree with Cert that the term prog is retorospective, I certainly don't remember any "prog" fans at the time. Anyone who was into Yes etc, were usually into led zeppelin, sabbath etc. The distinction being that they were more into "albums" bands, rather than "singles" bands. 

So ELO....not prog. Prog related? Hell..who knows...who isn't?

dream_orchestra wrote: Aren't Styx the American ELO, but worse songs? So..............................

Not even close.  Styx was an arena band in the 70s, much closer to Cheap Trick, Thin Lizzy, Gary Wright, Heart, Peter Frampton, or even Foreigner, but a far cry from ELO, who was more likely back then to attract fans of Queen, Kansas, Moody Blues, 10CC, and Atlanta Rythmn Section.

I remember when Styx tried to do a couple of artsy concept albums (Paradise Theater, Mr. Roboto), they pretty quickly found themselves touring county fairs instead of arenas and their sales never really recovered.  That just wasn't what where their fan base was.  Some of their earlier stuff like The Grand Illusion, Crystal Ball, and Equinox was definitely not pop or hair band, but didn't rise to the level of being progressive either.

ELO, on the other hand, had several albums like On the Third Day, ELO II, Out of the Blue, and El Dorado were maybe not progressive, but certainly of much better musicianship and higher production quality than bands like Cheap Trick, Styx, and even Queen.  And Roy Wood did some very underpublicized but interesting work with Wizzard around that time as well.

Unfortunately, by the time ELO pushed out their Time LP, they were pretty much on the road to pop icon status (and shortly followed by albatross obscurity).

IMHO, the volume of eclectic and interesting work they did prior to 1977 should merit them at least consideration under the Prog Related banner, but probably not much more than that.

BTW, Styx probably doesn't belong here at all, but at least they do generate some interesting threads from time to time, so I guess it's not a total travesty.

I am sorry, maybe I am not taking enough time to think but I gotta say something...

I find all of this really ridiculous, the fact that we add Muse, Radiohead, and all of those contemporary POP-ROCK bands in here... (And you guys say they're prog related, because of their music, but if theyre prog RELATED, then all their other compatriots of the POP ROCK scene are somwhere RELATED... so why not add System Of A down, and Coldplay while at it, man, lets just add everything that's related, EVERYTHING IS RELATED... I mean at the end of the day, music is just an endless puzzle where everything meets. PROG RELATED section was a MISTAKE!!!)

And when it's time to add things like ELO, or other bands that cleary had a PROGRESSIVE SOUND!!!... we have a sh*t load of difficulty doing so... while groups like Radiohead slip by as if someone gave a 20$ to the website owner. 

ELO are not prog, Styx are not prog......but no one llistens.