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Why is prog rock always called "snooty"?

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Frenetic Zetetic View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 22 2019 at 01:49
Anything outside the average mainstream IQ acceptance range will be labeled in a derogatory manner/

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 23 2019 at 20:59
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Such terms are reserved as a psychological justification for not feeling worthy of engaging in higher art forms. Everything about consciousness is based on our mind patterns and how they are programmed. Many people have been programmed to only enjoy simplistic artistic expressions and therefore erroneously view many higher musical expressions that take longer to comprehend something that is merely created for those who enjoy it to separate themselves and place themselves on a higher level. Classical and jazz are also considered by many as snooty because they are content listening to three chord punk or pop hip hop exclusively. Sad.

This, and they assume that people who listen to stuff like prog (or jazz or classical) only do so to fulfill intellectual needs and not because they find it soulful.  What they don't realise is complex music is naturally more dense and takes more effort to fully come to terms with and only THEN you can start appreciating its emotions.  It makes you have to persevere to appreciate, which you don't have to do with pop and they think that is somehow wrong.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 23 2019 at 22:47
^ yep. They don't realize that what they call snooty is our soul booty! Treasures filled with gold that NEVER get old Wink

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HackettFan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 23 2019 at 23:21
It’s the same reason liberals or academics are referred to as elitist. Inactive minds feel the need to mock those with active minds and then complain about how we are looking down on them.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 24 2019 at 00:19
^ Wurd

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HackettFan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 24 2019 at 00:53
Thanks, David.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tamijo_II Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 24 2019 at 01:51
One of my friend heard in the Radio some so called expert explain that a song longer that 3-4 min, would lose the listener. (my friend was off course indirectly referring to prog)  

Well I said, in that case most classical masterpieces must be unlikable in the stressed mind of the modern music expert. 


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Edited by tamijo_II - November 24 2019 at 01:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tamijo_II Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 24 2019 at 02:03
Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

It’s the same reason liberals or academics are referred to as elitist. Inactive minds feel the need to mock those with active minds and then complain about how we are looking down on them.

I would tend to believe It is mostly about the attempt to avoid that the masses from starting to think, and their mind starting to become active, they might want more for themselves. 

Making a situation where the under educated and the educated hate each other, is just what the 1/2% richest need, so they won't unite, cos that is where revolutions always start.     
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 24 2019 at 04:46
Originally posted by softandwet softandwet wrote:

That is my question. I wondered about that when a friend who I was talking about music with told me that prog was too pretentious.

Kinda like saying that Bernard Herrman is pretentious ... or almost every known composer of music in the 20th century.

The 20th century was the century of the GREAT VISUAL that would be considered "pretentious" if it had been written or discussed ... instead ... IT WAS THE NEWS AND LIVE ... RIGHT DOWN TO A BULLET TO SOMEONE'S HEAD ... and calling the strength and emotional impact of the music (and many of the arts) "pretentious" ... is, to me, not only weird ... but way out there on left field ... aligned with Martians and Venusians!


Edited by moshkito - November 24 2019 at 04:46
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 24 2019 at 07:27
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Such terms are reserved as a psychological justification for not feeling worthy of engaging in higher art forms. Everything about consciousness is based on our mind patterns and how they are programmed. Many people have been programmed to only enjoy simplistic artistic expressions and therefore erroneously view many higher musical expressions that take longer to comprehend something that is merely created for those who enjoy it to separate themselves and place themselves on a higher level. Classical and jazz are also considered by many as snooty because they are content listening to three chord punk or pop hip hop exclusively. Sad.


Why would those who have not been programmed to enjoy 'simplistic artistic expressions' necessarily gravitate to Prog, Classical or Jazz rather than other popular music genres? The music of Lou Reed, Beatles, Bob Dylan, David Bowie, Van Morrison, Elvis Costello, Johnny Cash, Patti Smith, Harry Nillson, Paddy McAloon, Lloyd Cole, Ray Davies, Burt Bacharach, Jimmy Webb, John Fogerty, Brian Wilson, Buddy Holly, James Brown, Randy Newman, Neil Young (the list goes on) is relatively simple when compared to Progressive Rock but none the less profoundly moving and thought provoking for all that. Why do we persist with the idea that complex music is somehow more deserving of reverence than simple music that has withstood the transience of fickle fashion for more than 50 years?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 24 2019 at 08:09
^^ It's good that Progressive Rock has stood the test of time too. "In the Court of the Crimson King" sounds just as good now as it did upon its release 50 years ago. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote I prophesy disaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 24 2019 at 08:48
Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

Inactive minds feel the need to mock those with active minds and then complain about how we are looking down on them.
 
Maybe they call prog rock "snooty" because of how we look down on them. Ok, I admit that I'm a music snob, but at least I accept that label with good humour, and recognise that maybe we are at least partly to blame for the denigration of prog.
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 24 2019 at 09:01
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Such terms are reserved as a psychological justification for not feeling worthy of engaging in higher art forms. Everything about consciousness is based on our mind patterns and how they are programmed. Many people have been programmed to only enjoy simplistic artistic expressions and therefore erroneously view many higher musical expressions that take longer to comprehend something that is merely created for those who enjoy it to separate themselves and place themselves on a higher level. Classical and jazz are also considered by many as snooty because they are content listening to three chord punk or pop hip hop exclusively. Sad.


Why would those who have not been programmed to enjoy 'simplistic artistic expressions' necessarily gravitate to Prog, Classical or Jazz rather than other popular music genres? The music of Lou Reed, Beatles, Bob Dylan, David Bowie, Van Morrison, Elvis Costello, Johnny Cash, Patti Smith, Harry Nillson, Paddy McAloon, Lloyd Cole, Ray Davies, Burt Bacharach, Jimmy Webb, John Fogerty, Brian Wilson, Buddy Holly, James Brown, Randy Newman, Neil Young (the list goes on) is relatively simple when compared to Progressive Rock but none the less profoundly moving and thought provoking for all that. Why do we persist with the idea that complex music is somehow more deserving of reverence than simple music that has withstood the transience of fickle fashion for more than 50 years?


That gets into some heavy duty neuroscience and how the brain responds to certain patterns, loops, cadences and subject  matter. In a nutshell, most pop music provides a sort of hypnotic inducing spell that allows subliminal messages to be inserted whereas the more complex forms of music evoke the opposite reaction. There is more than enough evidence that the Tavistock Institute of Public Relations was responsible for the British Invasion for example. The 60s music scene was manufactured to create an escapist route so that many would find themselves immersed in a drug culture and in effect neutralize the protest movements. Once indoctrinated into the cult of simple music, anything outside of that paradigm seems threatening and thus a defense response. I remember when i was young i thought prog was some snooty old people music so i'm speaking from my own experience as well. It wasn't until i opened up my mind and explored it that i realized i was a friggin idiot for having any of those assumptions. Of course there was primo talent with the artists you mentioned above but famous musicians were effectively mind controlled and required to do what the record label wanted. Prog on the other hand exemplified true musical freedom (for some anyways) and also served as the jackhammer to shatter ossified mind patterns.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 24 2019 at 09:21
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:


That gets into some heavy duty neuroscience and how the brain responds to certain patterns, loops, cadences and subject  matter. In a nutshell, most pop music provides a sort of hypnotic inducing spell that allows subliminal messages to be inserted whereas the more complex forms of music evoke the opposite reaction. There is more than enough evidence that the Tavistock Institute of Public Relations was responsible for the British Invasion for example. The 60s music scene was manufactured to create an escapist route so that many would find themselves immersed in a drug culture and in effect neutralize the protest movements. Once indoctrinated into the cult of simple music, anything outside of that paradigm seems threatening and thus a defense response. I remember when i was young i thought prog was some snooty old people music so i'm speaking from my own experience as well. It wasn't until i opened up my mind and explored it that i realized i was a friggin idiot for having any of those assumptions. Of course there was primo talent with the artists you mentioned above but famous musicians were effectively mind controlled and required to do what the record label wanted. Prog on the other hand exemplified true musical freedom (for some anyways) and also served as the jackhammer to shatter ossified mind patterns.

Prog/more complex "free" stuff can well be associated with escapism and drug culture, compared to some more "direct" music, possibly with direct political lyrics. I'm not saying that this is how it is, I'm just saying I can imagine (and have heard from some people) the same kind of argument stabbing the other direction.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HackettFan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 24 2019 at 10:26
Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

Inactive minds feel the need to mock those with active minds and then complain about how we are looking down on them.

 
Maybe they call prog rock "snooty" because of how we look down on them. Ok, I admit that I'm a music snob, but at least I accept that label with good humour, and recognise that maybe we are at least partly to blame for the denigration of prog.
 
 
 
The point was that it was mainly in the defensiveness of their own minds that we are looking down on them. It fits a mental schema. However, Prog fans are typically known for their eclectic tastes (for myself: World Music, Japanese bamboo flute, Peyote songs), things many Pop music fans may not be tolerant of. I don’t accept the snooty label. That’s not snooty. But even if it were, I don’t know how the general non-Prog fan populace would actually know, as Prog has pretty much been written out of Rock music history.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 24 2019 at 10:26
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:


That gets into some heavy duty neuroscience and how the brain responds to certain patterns, loops, cadences and subject  matter. In a nutshell, most pop music provides a sort of hypnotic inducing spell that allows subliminal messages to be inserted whereas the more complex forms of music evoke the opposite reaction. There is more than enough evidence that the Tavistock Institute of Public Relations was responsible for the British Invasion for example. The 60s music scene was manufactured to create an escapist route so that many would find themselves immersed in a drug culture and in effect neutralize the protest movements. Once indoctrinated into the cult of simple music, anything outside of that paradigm seems threatening and thus a defense response. I remember when i was young i thought prog was some snooty old people music so i'm speaking from my own experience as well. It wasn't until i opened up my mind and explored it that i realized i was a friggin idiot for having any of those assumptions. Of course there was primo talent with the artists you mentioned above but famous musicians were effectively mind controlled and required to do what the record label wanted. Prog on the other hand exemplified true musical freedom (for some anyways) and also served as the jackhammer to shatter ossified mind patterns.

Prog/more complex "free" stuff can well be associated with escapism and drug culture, compared to some more "direct" music, possibly with direct political lyrics. I'm not saying that this is how it is, I'm just saying I can imagine (and have heard from some people) the same kind of argument stabbing the other direction.


True but it seems that repetitive and hypnotic patterns in conjunct with drug use allow subliminal programming to take effect whereas prog and other complex thought patterns break these attempts. This is a generalization of course but seems to be true for the majority of the population. There are always a few of  us who are literally unprogrammable

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HackettFan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 24 2019 at 10:49
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Such terms are reserved as a psychological justification for not feeling worthy of engaging in higher art forms. Everything about consciousness is based on our mind patterns and how they are programmed. Many people have been programmed to only enjoy simplistic artistic expressions and therefore erroneously view many higher musical expressions that take longer to comprehend something that is merely created for those who enjoy it to separate themselves and place themselves on a higher level. Classical and jazz are also considered by many as snooty because they are content listening to three chord punk or pop hip hop exclusively. Sad.


Why would those who have not been programmed to enjoy 'simplistic artistic expressions' necessarily gravitate to Prog, Classical or Jazz rather than other popular music genres? The music of Lou Reed, Beatles, Bob Dylan, David Bowie, Van Morrison, Elvis Costello, Johnny Cash, Patti Smith, Harry Nillson, Paddy McAloon, Lloyd Cole, Ray Davies, Burt Bacharach, Jimmy Webb, John Fogerty, Brian Wilson, Buddy Holly, James Brown, Randy Newman, Neil Young (the list goes on) is relatively simple when compared to Progressive Rock but none the less profoundly moving and thought provoking for all that. Why do we persist with the idea that complex music is somehow more deserving of reverence than simple music that has withstood the transience of fickle fashion for more than 50 years?

Simple answer: On balance, we (Prog fans generally) are not all that interested in lyrics. Not always the case, but the tendency is surely there.

There’s nothing wrong with simplicity when one is trying to be poignant. Peter Gabriel certainly gets at some of that as a matter of fact. However, complexity has an inherent appeal when just listening to music for its own sake. Zappa remarked once that one of his own fairly popular albums Sheikh Yer Bouti was among his least favorite because it had very few little things to discover after repeated listen.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 24 2019 at 10:54
"snooty" is such a funny sounding word to me, I had to look it up, i did not know what it meant. LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 24 2019 at 11:45
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

"snooty" is such a funny sounding word to me, I had to look it up, i did not know what it meant. LOL
In prog terms, being snooty applies particularly to music journos with cloth ears who don't know a good prog album when they hear it, and who love to tell us that prog is pompous and pretentious and has had it's day, although everyone here at ProgArchives knows differently. Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 24 2019 at 11:52
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Such terms are reserved as a psychological justification for not feeling worthy of engaging in higher art forms. Everything about consciousness is based on our mind patterns and how they are programmed. Many people have been programmed to only enjoy simplistic artistic expressions and therefore erroneously view many higher musical expressions that take longer to comprehend something that is merely created for those who enjoy it to separate themselves and place themselves on a higher level. Classical and jazz are also considered by many as snooty because they are content listening to three chord punk or pop hip hop exclusively. Sad.


Why would those who have not been programmed to enjoy 'simplistic artistic expressions' necessarily gravitate to Prog, Classical or Jazz rather than other popular music genres? The music of Lou Reed, Beatles, Bob Dylan, David Bowie, Van Morrison, Elvis Costello, Johnny Cash, Patti Smith, Harry Nillson, Paddy McAloon, Lloyd Cole, Ray Davies, Burt Bacharach, Jimmy Webb, John Fogerty, Brian Wilson, Buddy Holly, James Brown, Randy Newman, Neil Young (the list goes on) is relatively simple when compared to Progressive Rock but none the less profoundly moving and thought provoking for all that. Why do we persist with the idea that complex music is somehow more deserving of reverence than simple music that has withstood the transience of fickle fashion for more than 50 years?
All true. Anyone that thinks that folk, blues, and rock and roll, etc. are lesser art forms needs to have his elitism checked.

Edited by SteveG - November 24 2019 at 11:54
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