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Do the Beatles get too much credit..

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Poll Question: See opening post for question.
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
54 [31.40%]
115 [66.86%]
3 [1.74%]
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Slartibartfast View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slartibartfast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2011 at 11:01
Get the hell off my lawn!!!
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2011 at 11:14
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

 
Oh, I don't disagree with your point, Roger. It's the manner in which such references are couched that make the difference. Bemoaning the fact that there wasn't a "reasoned debate" while at the same time slurring and demeaning a performer is nothing less than a joke. 
 
It would be as if I attacked a performer he revered, such as Frank Zappa, and make ludicrous statements like "Zappa is merely Spike Jones with an electric guitar", or "the only influence Zappa had was on Weird Al Yancovic's parodies", or "the only way Zappa could earn money was to make sophomoric jokes about yellow snow and dog-doo snow cones", in an effort to minimize the artist without any historical perspective, would be wrong and not at all the proper way to accomplish a "reasoned debate". It would accomplish the exact opposite, and both you and I know that.


Pah, the reasoned debate line is just a defensive retreat.  He won't admit he's wrong so he tries to blame it on everybody else being Beatles fanboys. Very convenient.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2011 at 12:06
...please do not close the thread
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2011 at 12:30
... in the 1960s they just used to put butter on the door handle.
What?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2011 at 13:55
^
LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snow Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2011 at 14:27
Originally posted by Barking Weasel Barking Weasel wrote:

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

^ He was online just now looking at this thread so I was trying to second guess it. He's offline now. Maybe he knows he's beaten?


I doubt it though.Nuke


Your logic fascinates and disturbs me.  Perhaps you are more eager to hear what I have to say than you readily admit? 

Why it should fasfcinate and disturb you is beyond my understanding. The logic is pretty solid. You were online and you were reading this thread and when I checked next you were offline without answering.. Where did I go wrong? And I really have read enough of your posts to know not to bother or be eager about.

You'll have to take my word on that.


Edited by Snow Dog - May 02 2011 at 04:28
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Henry Plainview Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2011 at 23:15
I can't believe I never read this before. I love this thread. Barking Weasel is the drill that will pierce the heavens. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brainstormer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 11 2011 at 00:31
The Beatles were really good at understanding the positive vibe that can be obtain
just by knowing some music theory and making it something that everyone can enjoy.
I think that's what's missing in a lot of complex or "intelligent" music, it's too pretentious.
It's trying to impress about .001% of the audience, and not even really in any way that's ahead
of it's time.   There was something very sonically fresh in what they were creating that
no one else was doing. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Warthur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 11 2011 at 12:17
My personal stance is that the Beatles were important not necessarily for what they invented (which is less than they were often credited with), but for what they popularised. Other artists might have been including Indian influences in their music at around the same time as the Beatles (the Seventh Sons put out "Raga" in 1964, after all), but it was thanks to the Beatles that absolutely everyone who even slightly paid attention to current music at the time ended up hearing that sort of thing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mortte Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2020 at 00:14
No. (my arguments are in Beatles vs Zappa poll).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2020 at 00:28
My argument basically boils down to "other", even if I didn't give that as an option (not sure why I didn't). I believe that some give the Beatles too much credit and other's not enough, and one needs to try to examine the specific claims that individual's make, and put the time into really researching those claims to find the evidence and also to see if the arguments are logically sound.

I have seen some dubious claims about the Beatles. They aren't necessarily wrong, but I didn't see how the evidence could lead to such an assured conclusion (I tend to dislike absolutism of all kinds). I went into some of those specifics earlier in the topic.

EDIT: And it was on the basis of various specific claims which were not backed up with sufficient evidence (and where one could find evidence to the contrary) or good reasoning that I voted yes. I'm convinced that some have given the Beatles too much credit (in terms of very specific claims), and also that some have not given the Beatles enough credit. It would amaze me if it could be otherwise because humans are not always rational or that intelligent, let alone omniscient creatures.

Edited by Logan - March 23 2020 at 00:47
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tamijo_II Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2020 at 00:33
No 
Same person as this profile:
Tamijo
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2020 at 01:06
My answer has not changed in 10yrs........Thanks for reviving this thread, not for the content but for seeing members of past, some I had forgotten about.
Cry
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2020 at 04:20
There was rock music before the Beatles (BB) and after the Beatles (AB). No other artist has that delineation associated with their name.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote I prophesy disaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2020 at 04:57
I suppose the answer to this question depends on whether you think that the relation "is influenced by" satisfies the transitive property. That is, if you think that B is influenced by A, and C is influenced by B, implies that C is influenced by A. How many of today's artists are directly influenced by the Beatles? Does indirect influence count?
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2020 at 05:01
I believe that Z is influenced by A in a supply side trickle down fashion. Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2020 at 09:16
Too much credit for what....?   
;)

Maybe......but I still voted  no.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2020 at 09:48
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Too much credit for what....?   
;)
 
You have to read the OP from 10 years ago. Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2020 at 10:13
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

I believe that Z is influenced by A in a supply side trickle down fashion. Tongue

Hi,

Wow ... this is some thread!

"Credit" might not be the word or what we are looking for when we talk about the Beatles, I do not think.

I can tell you when their first single hit Brazil, it was a moment that busted open the selling of singles in Brazil, and next day (so to speak) there was one from The Rolling Stones. And by the time we came to the States, we even had the RS album "Between The Buttons" which was their most recent, and the Beatles "Help" had been released a month or so before. Never saw the movie until a year later in America.

Here, in Madison, at least, I am not sure that the Beatles were as important ... because there was a huge musical scene that spread to Milwaukee and Chicago, and it had blues, and jazz everywhere, so both Beatles and Rolling Stones lost some influence in my book. By 1968 and then 1969 I was already into other things that I thought were more interesting and valuable than the Beatles, who were now fighting with each other about the meaning of each song (Let It Be) more or less and the "personalities" thing that you see in that film are fine to know who the people are, but kinda take away from the rest ... oh they are just like you and I!

After that, I got into European stuff, beginning with a lot of English stuff ... and never looked back. I never thought any of the Beatles solo albums was worth the money, instead of getting a PFM, Banco, AD2, KS or TD, for example.

SIDEBAR:
See the special on George Martin on AM Prime ... it is really good, and I think that my feeling now runs toward the idea that The Beatles, were a lot more George Martin, than they were The Beatles ... he helped them discover all kinds of things ... and as GM says ... they were in a play room with all these knobs and these knobs were fun to play with ... kids in a candy store! I kinda like that a lot ... but I think it also gives GM a much bigger input and design to the music than we can see ... but he does say that they were not very good at lyrics or the music and got way better as time goes by.

SIDEBAR2: GM learned all his stuff doing comedy albums for Peter Sellers and Spike Milligan, and probably some Goon shows, many of which needed special effects designed by Spike ... and these were always fantastic, but it would take the help of a person that had an ear for sound ... SOUND ... and how to use it, and this may have been GM's biggest contribution to the Beatles.


Edited by moshkito - March 23 2020 at 10:13
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2020 at 10:53
That's a really interesting post, Pedro, thanks for that. :) And I love Steve's comment.


Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Too much credit for what....?   
;)
 

You have to read the OP from 10 years ago. Confused


Methinks one should almost always try to at least read the opening post, and go through a topic a bit to get a feel for it, but people have lives etc.

I was thinking credit in terms of any claims made about the Beatles that you think wrong or dubious -- I spoke about claims of origination and innovation, as well as general claims of greatness. That said, I don't want to be fascistic, and I like it when individuals come up with their own approaches and their own arguments in-line with that approach. I like creativity and individualism. This topic is fairly philosophical and thought-experiment based. I'm interested in epistemology -- "the theory of knowledge, especially with regard to its methods, validity, and scope. Epistemology is the investigation of what distinguishes justified belief from opinion."

I had gone to a Beatles history presentation, and the speaker categorically claimed that the Beatles were the most important, the greatest, best, the most innovative and originative music-makers ever, but he didn't back-up those assertions well. I thought he was overrating the Beatles, and it came across as pure fanboy service. I would have liked to hear his arguments. He wasn't a historian or a music professor, but he was a famous name in music presenting, and a well-known media personality in Vancouver. It doesn't mean he was necessarily wrong, but I did not find his statements convincing (he acted like it was obvious and needed no explaining). I said, "What about Bach, can one objectively claim that the Beatles are greater than Bach?"

As said, sorry for repeating myself, I specifically referenced claims of origination and innovation, as well as claims of greatest (stated as objective fact). I voted yes, but were the question "Are the Beatles underrated", I also would have voted yes as I am convinced that one could find examples of people overrating and underrating the Beatles. When I use the term overrating, I mean specifically giving credit where credit may well not be due.

Really, I was more into exploring notions of overratedness and underratedness/ general claims of merit, than the Beatles themselves, but with the Beatles being such an influential and important band, it seemed a good one to use as an example to explore that and share some of my thoughts. I've delved into specific claims in the thread. A lot of what I said then wouldn't be quite how I'd phrase it now (I think I tend to be a little more nuanced now and use 30 percent more provisos in formal discussion to cover my ass more in the spirit of fun than anything). As is often say, I'm not an absolutist, and I don't believe anything anything with absolute certainty, including the statement that I don't believe anything with absolute certainty. Some may have taken it as an attack on the Beatles, but on the contrary, I chose the Beatles as an example because of how important to modern music they have been. Methinks most everyone underrates and overrates something.

This old topic got bumped cause I mentioned it in Morttes thread as an illustration (surprised to find it unlocked as I don't recall unlocking it, but I probably did at one time). I find it sad that threads do get auto-locked, since I would rather a topic be explored more and more deeply, and the issues refined over time, rather than repeating the same kinds of topics again and again. I also have had the feeling that good topics are often a work-in-progress, and it's a shame that people put so much thought and time into trying to present good arguments, or be creative, and the writing and the people sometimes are just forgotten about.

Edited by Logan - March 23 2020 at 11:00
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