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Topic ClosedRussia/Ukraine tensions - Any concern?

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Sean Trane View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2022 at 14:37
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2022 at 15:41
^ I'm kind of disappointed that it's not Putin.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2022 at 16:32
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

He has encouraged his followers to doubt all facets of our political process and turn everything into a macabre circus of bizarre conspiracies that defy logic and common sense.

I have not heard a better or clearer way of stating it than that. Epic sentence.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2022 at 19:26
Good segment from Maddow on Putin's envy over any country near him that is doing well, and the bitter resentment that fuels his psychology --



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2022 at 11:01
There are bombs dropping on this planet every day, that is concerning. The history of humans could also be renamed the history of war.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2022 at 11:08
Originally posted by Woon Deadn Woon Deadn wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Woon Deadn Woon Deadn wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^ No comment.

Steve, but this is what the empires do. Fortunately for the USA, they only has three... large enough countries on their continent. I understand the property issues, the unpaid debts and so on - but still why did the USA try to topple down the Cuban power, why did the USA mutually hate Venezuela? The Cuban and Venezuela people decided so - why some foreign force decides for them? Because the USA is the empire and can't bear any potential enemies on its borders. The USA is surrounded by Canada, Mexico and the oceans, mostly. Russia has been invaded numerous times in its history, it is surrounded by lots of different countries. They act like that. I don't like the idea, at all. There's nothing pleasant in being "liberated" or "protected" when I've never asked for liberation or protection. Russia is doing a very big mistake. But! You all have to understand that, rightly or wrongly, NATO is seen in Russia as an enemy, as an aggressive military alliance which can shift from defensive to offensive in a few hours... Russia is one of the last empires in the world. Empires act like that. It is not pleasant for me but I try to be objective. 

I have had some conversations with some Central Europeans, particularly Slovaks. They were happy to join the EU and NATO because they were told at the time that everybody would be as prosperous as the German people, and other stuff. In result, as my Slovak friend told me their country's bosses indeed bought themselves "luxury cars, luxury laptops, luxury handwatches" - and the ordinary Slovaks like her, have to work abroad, in her case in Ireland, to survive... Her colleagues at the Irish hotel are a Polish girl and a Latvian girl - those proud Poles and Balts who no longer bow to Russia... Instead they must bow to any visitor at an Irish hotel, including Russians... So, you know, all those talks that every country may join any military defensive alliance or any trade organisation just because everybody's equal... What's the use for a certain country and what's the use for the whole organisation? - this must be the first question, especially if it concerns military alliances. Were there any indicators that Russia somehow threatened Poland or Czech Republic or Hungary in March 1999? Tell me of those indicators, anyone, would you please! Russia was poor, ruined, its army was ruined as well. Russia was ruled by a more or less democrate Boris Yeltsin. What were the reasons to include three formerly Soviet-controlled countries in the anti-Soviet military bloc? Just anticipations that some day Russia would return to its old habits? Then why aren't people of the former colonies of the British Empire afraid that one day the UK returns to its old habits? Maybe, because times are changing. What was suitable in Stalin era, was not suitable in Brezhnev one. 

I do not justify any sort of criminal behaviour. But I also know that a criminal shall not blame other criminals. It's God who judges and saints who may blame. I see no saints in this situation! 
My no comment was for ompha, who criticized Biden for only using sanctions against Russia. What else could he do? Start a nuclear war with Russia. They still have nukes. There is also no protection treaty between the US and Ukraine. These types of criticisms are typical of those with her mind set. If Trump was still president, he would be publicly praising Putin for invading "corrupt" Ukraine. Totally sickening, and I'm quite sick of it. As for Russia's point of view, they are thugs. 

I wanted to defend her. I gave my opinion. I see no big difference between the different empires. Simply, the western ones are soft-touching and sneaky ones, the East is more brutal and straightforward. 

As for Trump, I already wrote in the forum about how he was/is predominantly viewed in Russia: funny freaky man who wanted to be friends with Russia. Russia used to live under various types of odd leaders, so it got used to separate itself from its leaders. The Kremlin and the people used to live in parallel rarely-colliding galaxies. So, average Russians usually can't understand why is Trump so scorned in the USA. And will never understand. Honestly speaking, I will never understand, too. 

Russia may be the biggest thugs on Earth, but still they have this view that NATO is a threat. What was the need to irritate them by including three European countries of which none was threatened by Russia of the 1990s, at all? 

The western ones are soft-touching and sneaky ones? I beg to differ. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2022 at 11:09
Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

There are bombs dropping on this planet every day, that is concerning. The history of humans could also be renamed the history of war.


This is unfortunately true.... ConfusedOuch
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2022 at 16:05
Reuters is reporting that the US, UK, Europe, and Canada will be blocking Russian access to SWIFT in the coming days.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2022 at 17:17
Originally posted by progaardvark progaardvark wrote:

Reuters is reporting that the US, UK, Europe, and Canada will be blocking Russian access to SWIFT in the coming days.

Nice. And Germany is sending Ukraine Stinger missiles and anti tank rockets. I hope they get there soon.

Edited by SteveG - February 26 2022 at 18:16
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2022 at 19:52
^ I suspect that when the Nordstream2 pipeline is abandoned/turned off, China has already agreed to step in to purchase Russia's gas thus getting around this sanction. Similarly, since 2014 when they annexed Crimea, Russia feared the west would remove it from the SWIFT system so has developed it's own payment platform (SPFS) Ditto China with their own CIPS platform. It almost goes without saying that sanctions will hurt at BOTH ends e.g. Russia's exports of oil and natural gas are critical to Europe's industries. That said, the short to medium term disruption to Russia would be considerable.

Skepticism towards NATO's avowed 'defence alliance' purpose just might be skewed somewhat by their military intervention (without UN sanction) in both Libya and Kosovo under the stated justification of 'preventing a humanitarian catastrophe' It's difficult to see the demarcation between these three atrocities apart from the inescapable fact that the militaristic/economic retribution capabilities of Gadaffi and Milosevic combined are simply dwarfed by that of Russia.
In other news: Although Turkey has condemned Russia's actions in Ukraine, their appalling human rights record, authoritarian disdain for democratic representation and corrupt judiciary all begs the question: what do you have to do to actually FAIL to meet NATO's entry level qualifications?


Edited by ExittheLemming - February 26 2022 at 20:10
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2022 at 20:32
How can a country fail to meet NATO's entry level qqualifications? Just be Russia or China. Who threatens the stability of the West more than those two countries?

Edited by SteveG - February 26 2022 at 20:33
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2022 at 00:05
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Although Turkey has condemned Russia's actions in Ukraine, their appalling human rights record, authoritarian disdain for democratic representation and corrupt judiciary all begs the question: what do you have to do to actually FAIL to meet NATO's entry level qualifications?

I agree, as a Turk. But this is off-topic IMO. In normal cases, I strongly guess that we'll get rid of our current government in the next elections. Will we be decent thereafter? Not sure.

Back on topic: Some Turkish news say that: "Biden says alternative to sanctions against Russia would be Third World War". Here's an English link (from a Russian source) to that news: https://tass.com/world/1412125

I hope that it will not happen, but fear that it might.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2022 at 00:18
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

How can a country fail to meet NATO's entry level qqualifications? Just be Russia or China. Who threatens the stability of the West more than those two countries?


I think we misunderstand each other hereabouts? NATO was formed in the first place to deter Soviet expansionism (and by extrapolation, communist China's sphere of influence) plus provide a deterrent for any revival of nationalist militarism after WW2. It seems unlikely that either would want to sign up for the 'We the Undersigned Think Russia and China Really Suck Club' Ermm


Edited by ExittheLemming - February 27 2022 at 00:25
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2022 at 02:44
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

^ I suspect that when the Nordstream2 pipeline is abandoned/turned off, China has already agreed to step in to purchase Russia's gas thus getting around this sanction. Similarly, since 2014 when they annexed Crimea, Russia feared the west would remove it from the SWIFT system so has developed it's own payment platform (SPFS) Ditto China with their own CIPS platform. It almost goes without saying that sanctions will hurt at BOTH ends e.g. Russia's exports of oil and natural gas are critical to Europe's industries. That said, the short to medium term disruption to Russia would be considerable.

Skepticism towards NATO's avowed 'defence alliance' purpose just might be skewed somewhat by their military intervention (without UN sanction) in both Libya and Kosovo under the stated justification of 'preventing a humanitarian catastrophe' It's difficult to see the demarcation between these three atrocities apart from the inescapable fact that the militaristic/economic retribution capabilities of Gadaffi and Milosevic combined are simply dwarfed by that of Russia.
In other news: Although Turkey has condemned Russia's actions in Ukraine, their appalling human rights record, authoritarian disdain for democratic representation and corrupt judiciary all begs the question: what do you have to do to actually FAIL to meet NATO's entry level qualifications?


These "economic sanctions" have no more effect on Russia's economy than a mosquito bite. For that matter, they hirt "us" as much as "them".
F1 GP in Sotchi is cancelled and Champion League final moved to Paris?? Well that ought really bring the country down, as much as ousting russia from Eirovision song contest. All laughable, really

Even expulsion SWIFT's argument is almost void, since "we" have waived it against Russia for so long that they've developped an alternative system. Iran was ousted from SWIFT, and they're still around (hurting but alive). The Germans will have to bring in train loads of cash to the Russian border to buy Gazprom's

We can't sell them our apples oranges, they'll buy them from elsewhere. We refuse to buy theuir gas é oil, they'll sell it to China.

If anything, with those sanctions,  we're pushing Russia into Chinese hands - and believe it, it's about as unwise as it gets in the long or medium run.

=============

As for NATO, just saw a docu about it's birth last night, and it's not as much countering the Soviet Block as putting all national armies under a single command in order to avoid internal fights (it's +/- worked out for Greece and Turkey, despite historical awful acrimony between these two members - but it didn't even work for Cyprus).

So now, NATO really looks like an idiotic institution, having flexed its muscles and doing nothing about it, once the tough gets going.





let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2022 at 04:11
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

These "economic sanctions" have no more effect on Russia's economy than a mosquito bite.


erm...agreed but your metaphor is crassly inappropriate (malaria still kills around 1,100 people per day.Ermm)

The core components of the Russian economy are to a significant extent, almost invulnerable to sanctions:
They have a massive agricultural sector
An abundance of raw materials
An Advanced IT sector
State of the art defence and aerospace industries
Their central bank has amassed the fifth largest reserve of foreign currencies in the world sufficient to
buttress against the most punitive western sanctions for the foreseeable future

Putin's geopolitical gambits don't appear anywhere near as bold and reckless as they are depicted in the light of such safeguards



Edited by ExittheLemming - February 27 2022 at 04:49
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2022 at 07:14
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

How can a country fail to meet NATO's entry level qqualifications? Just be Russia or China. Who threatens the stability of the West more than those two countries?


I think we misunderstand each other hereabouts? NATO was formed in the first place to deter Soviet expansionism (and by extrapolation, communist China's sphere of influence) plus provide a deterrent for <span ="ilfuvd"=""><span ="hgkelc"="">any revival of nationalist militarism after WW2. It seems unlikely that either would want to sign up for the 'We the Undersigned Think Russia and China Really Suck Club' Ermm
</span></span>

I used to think that NATO was defunct and a money pit, but not so much now. No wonder Trump hated it. It truly is a stumbling block for his buddy Putin.

Edited by SteveG - February 27 2022 at 07:16
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2022 at 11:09
The Russian idiot has now put his nuclear defenses on stand by. Can this get any worse?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2022 at 11:35
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

The Russian idiot has now put his nuclear defenses on stand by. Can this get any worse?
Yes, I think it will.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2022 at 11:38
The Ukrainians will not lie down, they remember the Holomodor (Famine) and the men will fight endlessly to the last man. Worse would only be if the Ukrainian Army invades Russia (but that cannot happen). Time for the West to shut up the endless media rhetoric and silently strangle the Bear economically. Lest we remember that the USSR collapsed economically in 1989, effectively going bankrupt. Remember also that the people of Hungary (with no army) held the USSR to a standstill for 11 days in 1956, using Molotov cocktails with deadly effect in urban warfare. In chess, the need for a draw is the best outcome , may it be so in war as well... 

Edited by tszirmay - February 27 2022 at 11:40
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2022 at 11:53
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

The Russian idiot has now put his nuclear defenses on stand by. Can this get any worse?
Yes, I think it will.
I agree John. My question was only rhetorical.
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