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Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
Posted: July 28 2014 at 11:16
cstack3 wrote:
ProgMetaller2112 wrote:
Yes or No?
No. I've played guitar & bass for over 40 years and have yet to meet another player with Fripp's unique sonic vocabulary. I've enjoyed meeting Bob, he's absolutely brilliant. This is nice...
That is nice. Thanks for posting. Love Sylvians voice. Agree about fripp too. One of my favourite musicians.
Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 10970
Posted: July 28 2014 at 11:24
LSDisease wrote:
you came up with that
complexity argument as the most important thing, ...
I never said anything of the kind. When did I ever say that?
LSDisease wrote:
I was talking about Fripp's abilities. Like I said earlier, KC may be complex but this complexity goes beyond Fripp's skills as a guitarist.
And I was attempting to challenge that argument.
LSDisease wrote:
Dayvenkirq wrote:
Why would you doubt it? Do you possess his intellect, playing habits,
musical acumen, etc.? Who are we to assume what he doesn't know or what
he can't accomplish? Maybe he could play them but chose not to (which is
a great decision, if you ask me).
maybe punk rock guitarists were able to play Caprice but
they chose not to...dunno, but I think they just couldn't do this cos
it's not an easy thing to do.
Faulty logic. Just because something is not an easy thing to do doesn't mean that a guitarist (let alone a punk rock guitarist) can't do it. What if there is such a guitar player who can?
Joined: July 25 2014
Location: End of the line
Status: Offline
Points: 9
Posted: July 28 2014 at 14:15
ok, listen,
all of this bickering about Fripp being "Overrated" (or not).....is useless. When someone says, "overrated", is he/she referring to the critics' judgment? Or the judgment of a bunch of generally anonymous (except this website! ha!) fans? (many of whom Fripp has stated himself were too drunk or stoned at the concerts to even appreciate his work)
What do you MEAN or INTEND by "overrated"??
So what if he IS "overrated" by whatever standard or criteria YOU (the original poster & genesis of this thread) have going?
Is that going to stop hard-core Crimson enthusiasts from shelling out 100+ dollars for the "Road to Red" boxed set?........or,........how about the equally expensive "Larks' Tongues Complete set"?
Does it REALLY matter to the world if he is ...........hmmmf......"O-V-E-R-R-A-T-E-D"?
Just shut up and play yer guitar!
"Naked we come, bruised we go...Nude pastry for the slow soft worms below" ---James D. Morrison; "Throw out yer gold teeth & see how they roll...the answer they reveal: Life is Unreal" ---Steely Dan
Regardless of whether you care for his music or
otherwise, Fripp has always steadfastly refused to fill that 'heroic
virtuoso' role created for him by Rawk's star system many years
ago. (His sitting down to play was, amongst other things, a reaction to such conditioning) Bob has simply too much intelligence, dignity and Integrity to
stoop to conquer a marketplace he clearly views with considerable
suspicion. This makes him a deeply unpopular figure within the music
entertainment industry. Long may he continue to get up the noses of
Rock's archly conservative rank and file air guitarists everywhere. (You
know who you are)
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 28968
Posted: July 29 2014 at 00:52
Trouble is the sitting down thing becomes a statement so it still plays into an image and helping sell records. I'm not sure that he is viewed with any more suspicion than the many individuals that are in rock bands who are generally not always the 'nicest' people. Jolly good wheeze to be able to sit down on the job and make it look like some high integrity.IMO
Trouble is the sitting down thing becomes a statement so it still plays into an image and helping sell records. I'm not sure that he is viewed with any more suspicion than the many individuals that are in rock bands who are generally not always the 'nicest' people. Jolly good wheeze to be able to sit down on the job and make it look like some high integrity.IMO
How is a highly accomplished rock guitarist who sits down to play at a live concert 'playing into an image and helping sell records? The foregoing is the antithesis of Rawk aesthetics: Jumping around, showing off, pulling faces and maybe trashing yer gear is de rigueur for the genre. To paraphrase another hippy (Bill Hicks): are you saying Bob was cunningly playing the sexy but sedentary axe hero dollar?
I never said anything of the kind. When did I ever say that?
You said "I've explained why "Fracture" sounds complex to me. That's mostly a guitar-oriented piece, but by and large it's a group effort." while it was not the point, besides this particular song isn't very complex actually.
Dayvenkirq wrote:
And I was attempting to challenge that argument
Fripp's mind is faster than his fingers
.
Dayvenkirq wrote:
Just because something is not an easy thing to do doesn't mean that a guitarist (let alone a punk rock guitarist) can't do it. What if there is such a guitar player who can?
Actually? I've already explained to you why it is. Time to stop beating the dead horse.
that first part may sound complex but it's just a combination of sounds that lie close to each other, nothing special actually. You hear it but you can't see it. I see it.
Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Points: 10970
Posted: July 29 2014 at 04:50
LSDisease wrote:
Dayvenkirq wrote:
Actually? I've already explained to you why it is. Time to stop beating the dead horse.
that first part may sound complex but it's just a combination of sounds that lie close to each other, nothing special actually. You hear it but you can't see it. I see it.
Again with the "actually". It's subjective as to what is special. And what do you mean by "a combination of sounds that lie close to each other"? It's called whole tones. The first part of the piece is just as complex as the rest of it thanks to the whole tones.
By the way, what is it that we are hearing and seeing?
LSDisease wrote:
Dayvenkirq wrote:
LSDisease wrote:
Dayvenkirq wrote:
Just because something is not an easy thing to do doesn't mean that a guitarist (let alone a punk rock guitarist) can't do it. What if there is such a guitar player who can?
Then his name is not Robert Fripp.
Any way of proving that?
King Crimson albums.
What? I don't get it. How does that answer my question? This needs a technical explanation.
LSDisease wrote:
Seriously, Fripp is not a virtuoso, he's original composer but not a virtuoso.
I don't know what "original composer" has to do with anything here. Also, how do you know Fripp is not a virtuoso?
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
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Points: 16130
Posted: July 29 2014 at 04:51
^^^ and I'll take an original composer over some "look at me mum" shredder any day of the week. I grew up all excited about long haired guitarists who could play really fast and use classical references in their music. Then I discovered the likes of Lifeson, Gilmour and Fripp and all those 'heroes' just seemed a bit... you know..
Plus they mostly made predictable sh*t music imo...
Joined: September 03 2006
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Posted: July 29 2014 at 04:52
Not to play devil's advocate, but while what is SPECIAL may be subjective, if the word special is used in relation to complexity, it ought to reflect in some unusual patterns, some unusual level of difficulty. What is the thing, exactly, that makes the guitar parts of Fracture especially hard to play? I think cstack3 had explained this in another thread, but cannot recall which one.
Joined: September 03 2006
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Points: 9869
Posted: July 29 2014 at 04:55
Blacksword wrote:
^^^ and I'll take an original composer over some "look at me mum" shredder any day of the week. I grew up all excited about long haired guitarists who could play really fast and use classical references in their music. Then I discovered the likes of Lifeson, Gilmour and Fripp and all those 'heroes' just seemed a bit... you know..
Plus they mostly made predictable sh*t music imo...
I agree with that. But if suppose Fripp indeed cannot play shred guitar the way Marty Friedman can, there is no need to grudge Friedman that, which is where the above discussion seems to be going. Or is it necessary that Fripp has to be the best in each and everything he does? And by the way, Friedman is one of the most tasteful shredders because he does NOT rely only on speed. Maybe he did that on Cacophony, but not with Megadeth; Tornado of Souls is one of the most memorable guitar solos in metal.
Again with the "actually". It's subjective as to
what is special. And what do you mean by "a combination of sounds that
lie close to each other"? It's called whole tones. The first part of the
piece is just as complex as the rest of it thanks to the whole tones.
No it's not, it's easy to play. You said you proved complexity of Fracture I proved you wrong.
Dayvenkirq wrote:
I don't get it. How does that answer my question? This needs a technical explanation.
all
you have are KC albums and live shows, nothing more...and because
you're not Fripp's friend coming to his house and hear him playing you
can't just say he would play this or that
Joined: September 03 2006
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Posted: July 29 2014 at 05:05
Both of you guys need to get a lot more specific...or else aborting the discussion might serve you better rather than coming back to square one all over again and again. If you say Fracture is complex and difficult to execute, it has to be explained in specific terms. I know guitarist friends who can break down a part like that so don't tell me that's difficult to do. And if you say Fracture is easy, prove it. Either play it yourself or find a friend who can. Just making vague allegations that the other guy doesn't get it is not a helpful way to debate.
^^^ and I'll take an original composer over some "look at me mum" shredder any day of the week. I grew up all excited about long haired guitarists who could play really fast and use classical references in their music. Then I discovered the likes of Lifeson, Gilmour and Fripp and all those 'heroes' just seemed a bit... you know..
Plus they mostly made predictable sh*t music imo...
Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 10970
Posted: July 29 2014 at 05:07
rogerthat wrote:
Both of you guys need to get a lot more specific...or else aborting the discussion might serve you better rather than coming back to square one all over again and again. If you say Fracture is complex and difficult to execute, it has to be explained in specific terms. I know guitarist friends who can break down a part like that so don't tell me that's difficult to do. And if you say Fracture is easy, prove it. Either play it yourself or find a friend who can. Just making vague allegations that the other guy doesn't get it is not a helpful way to debate.
It's just that there seems to be a confusion of simple ideas. I don't know why. I try to be as specific as I can. I'm looking for proof from the other party, for answers, but I'm not getting anything. Watch this:
===================
LSDisease wrote:
Dayvenkirq wrote:
Again with the "actually". It's subjective as to what is special. And what do you mean by "a combination of sounds that lie close to each other"? It's called whole tones. The first part of the piece is just as complex as the rest of it thanks to the whole tones.
No it's not, it's easy to play. You said you proved complexity of Fracture, I proved you wrong.
"Ease of playing" and "complexity" are not the same thing. So far you haven't proven anything with anything. You have not used any technical terms or discussed any objective characteristics. Saying "I have proven you wrong" doesn't prove anything.
LSDisease wrote:
Dayvenkirq wrote:
I don't get it. How does that answer my question? This needs a technical explanation.
all you have are KC albums and live shows, nothing more...and because you're not Fripp's friend coming to his house and hear him playing you can't just say he would play this or that.
I never said he would play or be able to play this or that. All I'm saying is this: you don't know whether or not he would not be able to play this or that. You keep making assumptions, you fill in the gaps by relying on insufficient information.
Joined: September 03 2006
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Posted: July 29 2014 at 05:11
Well, you could help the discussion by explaining what part of Fracture makes it so tough. You are not doing that. Ok, I will illustrate. This is what you said as explanation for what makes Fracture complex:
"Chord structures, execution (not just of arpeggios), whole-tone melodies, composition format, etc."
Ok, what chord structures? Why are they complex? Why are they tough to play? Can you elaborate? In what way is the execution demanding? If I claimed a certain song was tough to sing and somebody asked me what part of it was, I would certainly be able to pinpoint, be it the range or the amount of distortion used, the breath control required, the intricacy of the melismas, etc.
I agree with that. But if suppose Fripp indeed cannot play shred guitar the way Marty Friedman can, there is no need to grudge Friedman that, which is where the above discussion seems to be going. Or is it necessary that Fripp has to be the best in each and everything he does? And by the way, Friedman is one of the most tasteful shredders because he does NOT rely only on speed. Maybe he did that on Cacophony, but not with Megadeth; Tornado of Souls is one of the most memorable guitar solos in metal.
First Cacophony album is completely senseless, but the second is a very good one with memorable songs. Take Black Cat (I nailed that second solo from the intro) or Images. Beautiful music, but there's also Jason Becker as a second shredder.
"Ease of playing" and "complexity" are not the same thing. So far you haven't proven anything with anything. You have not used any technical terms or discussed any objective characteristics. Saying "I have proven you wrong" doesn't prove anything.
Take a look at this, where's that complexity? And don't tell me you hear it's complex, if you can read tabs you see it's not very complex http://www.songsterr.com/a/wsa/king-crimson-fracture-tab-s40543t0
[QUOTE=Dayvenkirq] I never said he would play or be able to play this or that. All I'm saying is this: you don't know whether or not he would not be able to play this or that. You keep making assumptions, you fill in the gaps by relying on insufficient information. [/QUOTE]
you said something like you're pretty sure he'd nail it. But you can't prove that, all you have are KC albums.
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Is Robert Fripp Overrated?
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cstack3 wrote:
