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Do the Beatles get too much credit..

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The Dark Elf View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2011 at 04:50
Originally posted by Barking Weasel Barking Weasel wrote:

I am not disputing that DSOTM is highly regarded, I am in fact validating that widely held belief, and acknowledging it is true for me also.  I totally agree that "Dark Side" now gets all the critical accolades and respect it deserves and more, which I am happy about.  However, I am still saying that the Beatles production has long since been outclassed, and their sound is outdated in comparison to works that came after them (such as DSOTM).
 
Alan Parsons produced Dark Side of the Moon, for which he received critical acclaim and a Grammy award. Do you know where he learned his production values? He was assistant sound engineer on the Let it Be and Abbey Road albums. Here is a quote from Alan Parsons: "I couldn't wait to find out the secrets behind the album. It left me totally in awe of the talent of The Beatles themselves of course, but also the work behind the scenes in the studio". He also added: "I couldn't have asked for a better grounding in recording - after all not many engineers got to work the greatest rock act of all time". So, without equivocation, The Beatles influence directly impacted the making of Dark Side of the Moon.
 
Alan Parsons also was the leader of "A Walk Down Abbey Road", a 2001 Beatles tribute concert tour featuring Parsons, John Entwistle of the who, Todd Rundgren, Jack Bruce of Cream, and Ann Wilson of Heart, among others.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snow Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2011 at 04:58
This is a lot of reading...even if one misses a few posts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2011 at 05:03
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by Barking Weasel Barking Weasel wrote:

I am not disputing that DSOTM is highly regarded, I am in fact validating that widely held belief, and acknowledging it is true for me also.  I totally agree that "Dark Side" now gets all the critical accolades and respect it deserves and more, which I am happy about.  However, I am still saying that the Beatles production has long since been outclassed, and their sound is outdated in comparison to works that came after them (such as DSOTM).
 
Alan Parsons produced Dark Side of the Moon, for which he received critical acclaim and a Grammy award. Do you know where he learned his production values? He was assistant sound engineer on the Let it Be and Abbey Road albums. Here is a quote from Alan Parsons: "I couldn't wait to find out the secrets behind the album. It left me totally in awe of the talent of The Beatles themselves of course, but also the work behind the scenes in the studio". He also added: "I couldn't have asked for a better grounding in recording - after all not many engineers got to work the greatest rock act of all time". So, without equivocation, The Beatles influence directly impacted the making of Dark Side of the Moon.
 
Alan Parsons also was the leader of "A Walk Down Abbey Road", a 2001 Beatles tribute concert tour featuring Parsons, John Entwistle of the who, Todd Rundgren, Jack Bruce of Cream, and Ann Wilson of Heart, among others.
 
Get a clue.
 
Not forgetting Chris Thomas, responsible for the final mix of DSotM, had also worked with Martin and The Beatles on The White Album.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2011 at 16:29
Originally posted by Barking Weasel Barking Weasel wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

And by the way, DSOTM is very widely acknowledged as an example of production excellence, so what precisely your point is beats me.  If you're claiming that Beatles production is overhyped and Dark Side does not get its due, you are once again clutching at straws.  And if you are going to throw a hissy fit over production, maybe people should not listen to the live recordings of Bill Evans either and stick to ermm Kenny G because the production values on the latter are way more matured.


I am not disputing that DSOTM is highly regarded, I am in fact validating that widely held belief, and acknowledging it is true for me also.  I totally agree that "Dark Side" now gets all the critical accolades and respect it deserves and more, which I am happy about.  However, I am still saying that the Beatles production has long since been outclassed, and their sound is outdated in comparison to works that came after them (such as DSOTM).

Kenny G has "matured" production values?  Highly glossy and overly polished elevator music does not equal mature, in my estimation.  That does not sound like a reasonable line of inquiry to me; why would anyone on this forum care about Kenny G?  He's not even a progressive or prog-related artist!  Production for me is a deal-breaker only when it highly interferes with my own enjoyment of the music.  It may be shocking to die-hard Beatles fans to actually hear someone cry foul about their favorite albums, but I am not exaggerating in the slightest when I say that "Rubber Soul" and "Revolver" have a grating sound quality to my ears.

Here are examples of what I consider to be mature-sounding albums that I enjoy and that I like listening to; I think they easily eclipse what the Beatles have done from a standpoint of sounding really good, and being well-mastered albums that don't have annoying audio defects, tape hiss, or vocal distortion:

"Moving Pictures" by Rush, "Hamburger Concerto" by Focus, "Crime Of The Century" by Supertramp, "The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway" by Genesis, "Kind Of Blue" by Miles Davis, "The Soft Bulletin" by the Flaming Lips, "Shut Up N' Play Yer Guitar" by Frank Zappa, "Acquiring The Taste" by Gentle Giant, "The Black Album" by Metallica, and either "Dark Side Of The Moon" or "Wish You Were Here" by Pink Floyd.

Are any of these albums universally regarded as being inherently superior to the output of the Beatles?  No, but my point is that they sound exceptional and don't have production issues that would otherwise interfere with my listening experience, unlike the music of the Beatles.  Are you telling me that the Beatles should STILL sound better, production-wise, than all of the albums I have listed above?  As I've said before, I am comitted to hearing the Beatles remasters.  So far, most of what I've heard outside of these new releaes has been unimpressive from a mastering standpoint.   



I don't really hear any "grating sound quality" in Revolver, in fact I think it sounds a lot better than Sergeant Pepper, which also sounds much more dated now. Of course, both are over 40 years old now so it's no surprise that things have improved by the time of Metallica. Beatles recordings are full of mistakes, deliberate and otherwise (so much so that there is at least one web site dedicated to listing them all) but I'd rather listen to them than a sterile modern recording that's produced to within an inch of its life.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2011 at 19:26
Originally posted by Barking Weasel Barking Weasel wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

And by the way, DSOTM is very widely acknowledged as an example of production excellence, so what precisely your point is beats me.  If you're claiming that Beatles production is overhyped and Dark Side does not get its due, you are once again clutching at straws.  And if you are going to throw a hissy fit over production, maybe people should not listen to the live recordings of Bill Evans either and stick to ermm Kenny G because the production values on the latter are way more matured.


I am not disputing that DSOTM is highly regarded, I am in fact validating that widely held belief, and acknowledging it is true for me also.  I totally agree that "Dark Side" now gets all the critical accolades and respect it deserves and more, which I am happy about.  However, I am still saying that the Beatles production has long since been outclassed, and their sound is outdated in comparison to works that came after them (such as DSOTM).

Kenny G has "matured" production values?  Highly glossy and overly polished elevator music does not equal mature, in my estimation.  That does not sound like a reasonable line of inquiry to me; why would anyone on this forum care about Kenny G?  He's not even a progressive or prog-related artist!  Production for me is a deal-breaker only when it highly interferes with my own enjoyment of the music.  It may be shocking to die-hard Beatles fans to actually hear someone cry foul about their favorite albums, but I am not exaggerating in the slightest when I say that "Rubber Soul" and "Revolver" have a grating sound quality to my ears.

Here are examples of what I consider to be mature-sounding albums that I enjoy and that I like listening to; I think they easily eclipse what the Beatles have done from a standpoint of sounding really good, and being well-mastered albums that don't have annoying audio defects, tape hiss, or vocal distortion:

"Moving Pictures" by Rush, "Hamburger Concerto" by Focus, "Crime Of The Century" by Supertramp, "The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway" by Genesis, "Kind Of Blue" by Miles Davis, "The Soft Bulletin" by the Flaming Lips, "Shut Up N' Play Yer Guitar" by Frank Zappa, "Acquiring The Taste" by Gentle Giant, "The Black Album" by Metallica, and either "Dark Side Of The Moon" or "Wish You Were Here" by Pink Floyd.

Are any of these albums universally regarded as being inherently superior to the output of the Beatles?  No, but my point is that they sound exceptional and don't have production issues that would otherwise interfere with my listening experience, unlike the music of the Beatles.  Are you telling me that the Beatles should STILL sound better, production-wise, than all of the albums I have listed above?  As I've said before, I am comitted to hearing the Beatles remasters.  So far, most of what I've heard outside of these new releaes has been unimpressive from a mastering standpoint.   

Perhaps a bit of technological perspective is needed here.
 
Multitrack recording was in its infancy during the period we are looking at. When the Beatles first started recording they were recording onto 2-track tape machines, in late 1963 Abbey Road installed 4-track machines (so their first two albums were recorded on 2-tracks), 8-track machines weren't installed until 1968, so Rubber Soul and Revolver were recorded on a 4-track system. Sgt Pepper was recorded using two 4-track machines to emulate an 8-track, unlike The Beach Boys who had access to a real 8-track for Pet Sounds.
 
For the White Album the Beatles went to Trident Studios to record some of the songs because they had an 8-track system - the Beatles final albums were recorded on 8-track machines. The UK lagged the USA by several years on the transition to 16-track studios - artists like Zappa, B,S&T, Grateful Dead and Jefferson Airplane all had access to 16-track studios while the Beatles and Pink Floyd were still using the 8-track setups at Abbey Road.
 
16-track tape machines didn't arrive in the UK until the tail-end of 1969, with the first at Trident Studios where the last track on VdGG's Least We Can Do Is Wave At Each Other was one of the first tracks to use it. That's not to say all the albums recorded on Trident's 16-track set up were fine examples of music Production - Trespass and Nursery Cryme were both recorded at Trident on 16-track tape, and the production on those is pretty poor. By 1971 most studios in London had transitioned over to 16-track tape. By 1973, when Floyd recorded Dark Side of the Moon, Abbey Road Studio was entirely 16-track and one of the most advanced studios of its time (and a little too late for the Beatles).
 
What this means is that the technology that the Beatles used in their entire recording history was simpler, older and less accommodating than that used by all bar one of the albums you cite (except Kind Of Blue obviously) - it was even simpler than Zappa had for Hot Rats. Abbey Road's 4 and 8 track tape machines didn't even have Dolby to minimise the tape hiss from one bounce down to the next. Therefore any "audio-defects", tape hiss or other recording faults can't be blamed on the artists who used Abbey Road in the 60s, but on the studio itself and EMI's reluctance to modernise it until it had to. That the Beatles, Martin and all those studio engineers managed to create what they did with the technology at their disposal makes them even more remarkable.
 
Remastering any of these older 4 and 8-track recordings isn't going to make the spotless, and it certainly won't raise them up to the same level as an original or remastered 16-track recording. Also, remixing any of these albums is impossible because the masters are already mixed-down and cannot be "unmixed". Remastering is not a magic process that guarantees to make things better or right - it is simply transferring of the 4, 8 or 16 track tape recordings down to a 2-track stereo mix with a bit of EQ and a bit of reverb to beef it up a little.


Edited by Dean - April 25 2011 at 17:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote harmonium.ro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 25 2011 at 05:19
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Abbey Road's 4 and 8 track tape machines didn't even have Dolby to minimise the tape hiss from one bounce down to the next.


Wow, I didn't know that.

Dean, are you sure about the master tapes being already mixed-down? I know that in the case of King Crimson, the lost and found master tapes upon which the new remixes are based were not mixed-down.


Edited by harmonium.ro - April 25 2011 at 05:20
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 25 2011 at 17:47
Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Abbey Road's 4 and 8 track tape machines didn't even have Dolby to minimise the tape hiss from one bounce down to the next.


Wow, I didn't know that.

Dean, are you sure about the master tapes being already mixed-down? I know that in the case of King Crimson, the lost and found master tapes upon which the new remixes are based were not mixed-down.
Both Crimson and The Beatles uses successive bouncedowns to free up tracks to use to record (overdub) new layers. A bouncedown is an intermediate mix where multiple tracks are mixed down to just two, freeing up spare tracks for new layers. For example to build up the rich orchestral sound on something like ITCotCK or Sgt Pepper they would have (say) 2 of the tracks for the Drums and Bass, 2 for Rhythm, 2 to build up the "orchestra" and two blank tracks to record new layers on to. Once they were happy with the two new layer they would bounce those two new tracks down onto the 2 previous "orchestra" tracks, freeing up the two "blank" tracks to record the next layer. Once they were happy with that they would then bounce down even further, from 6-tracks down to 4 for example, so they could record the lead and vocal parts (for example). So even though the 8-track master is not the final mix, a lot of intermediate mixing has been going on during the recording.
 
/edit: if you can imagine recording a drum kit onto 8-track there simply isn't enough tracks to record each element of the kit: every drum head will be mic'd up and then two or more mic's used for the cymbols (overheads). Therefore it is necessary to live-mix many of those onto one or two tracks, so for example they would live mix the kick drum onto one track, the snare onto another, then the toms onto say two tracks and the overheads onto another two. Once a they had achieved a good take that would have used up 6 of the available 8 tracks just for drums, so they would then bounce down those 6 tracks to two. After that it would be impossible to un-mix the drum track to boost or re-position (spacially) the snare for example. Of course if they kept copies of the original 6-track drum sessions then they could to some extend (but not the live-mix of the toms for example), but generally the cost of tape meant they just recorded over them.


Edited by Dean - April 26 2011 at 04:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote harmonium.ro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 26 2011 at 08:39
I knew what bouncing down is Embarrassed but you obviously explain it much better than me.

Because of the KC master tapes being described as "first-generation multi-tracks before sub-mixing" or "original pre-bounce tracks" I assumed there is absolutely no bouncing down, but your example with the recording of the drums makes sense.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 26 2011 at 09:17
Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

I knew what bouncing down is Embarrassed but you obviously explain it much better than me.

Because of the KC master tapes being described as "first-generation multi-tracks before sub-mixing" or "original pre-bounce tracks" I assumed there is absolutely no bouncing down, but your example with the recording of the drums makes sense.
Hmm, sorry, didn't mean to be patronising. Embarrassed
 
Delving deeper into ITCotCK remix, Fripp does say that they have gone back to the first gen pre-sub mix tapes. I stand corrected.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote harmonium.ro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 26 2011 at 09:28
A lucky occurence I guess...

[For Fripp and KC, I mean.]
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snow Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 26 2011 at 09:30
Thanks Dean. This stuff is fascinating.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 26 2011 at 09:34
Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

A lucky occurence I guess...

[For Fripp and KC, I mean.]
You're not kidding - I'd love to know how many lost tapes they found - from what Fripp says it implies more than just the one 8-track master. This coupled with EMI "finding" the lost Enid masters of In The Region Of The Summer Stars makes you wonder how many "lost" gems are still out there waiting to be found.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote harmonium.ro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 26 2011 at 09:55
It was quite a pile of tapes, hence the extensive remixing that's been done. Based on Fripp's thoughts on the music industry I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of such mistreated tapes still exist in various basements, warehouses, etc.:

Originally posted by Fripp in 2006 on his DGM blog Fripp in 2006 on his DGM blog wrote:

The fourth topic of our arising concern & interest is the delay in returning master tapes. Our distributor’s business was prejudiced at its very beginning, and lost because they were not able to release the catalogue punctually as intended. And DGM had to create new masters of all the albums, which should have been unnecessary.

Clearly, EMI as dinosaur doesn’t have a great deal of intelligence; does have a series of system failures to acknowledge, address & accept responsibility for; and compensate those who have been impacted – in this case, Panegyric, KC & DGM.

A general comment on large record companies: inefficiency in departments can rarely be remedied by outside parties who lose because of it. This is a full-time job, is very expensive, a major distraction from the creative life, and almost wholly a negative experience. This is the good news.

The bad news: this is known by the company, and allowed for within its operating structure. That is, efficiency is not seen as being in the direct interest of the record company - because it profits from its carelessness.



Browsing through his blog I also found this older entry, from the time of the previous reissues of the KC catalogue a decade ago, interesting because of the thoughts on digital production of older analogue recordings.

More revealing details about the tribulations of returning the tapes to their owners here. or here.




Edited by harmonium.ro - April 26 2011 at 10:22
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote giselle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 26 2011 at 15:59
Post getting bogged down by barking balderdash, beamed in from another universe to planet prog with no knowledge of the big bang Beatles.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 26 2011 at 17:34
Originally posted by giselle giselle wrote:

Post getting bogged down by barking balderdash, beamed in from another universe to planet prog with no knowledge of the big bang Beatles.
Stern Smile really? Would you like to be more specific about that?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 26 2011 at 17:50
Originally posted by giselle giselle wrote:

Post getting bogged down by barking balderdash, beamed in from another universe to planet prog with no knowledge of the big bang Beatles.
 
I'm sorry...remind me who the Beatles are again.......I forgot Confused
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote giselle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 26 2011 at 19:13
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by giselle giselle wrote:

Post getting bogged down by barking balderdash, beamed in from another universe to planet prog with no knowledge of the big bang Beatles.
Stern Smile really? Would you like to be more specific about that?
More specific?!!!! You're winding me up; a quick glance at the posts shows that barking has scant understanding of how rock developed in the first place; and 2011 SHOULDN'T compare to 1967 unless you're from outer space. Then again, perhaps posts like that give you something to chew on, being so off beam sure gives plenty of scope. Maybe you special contributors and senior members are specially trained to be as controversial as the fruit cakes who float through the serving tray. It's quite simple: No Beatles = No prog or any life as we know it Jim.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snow Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 26 2011 at 19:30
^ I presume you mean Barking..with a capital B. Communication needs to be clear.

Edited by Snow Dog - April 26 2011 at 19:31
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote giselle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 26 2011 at 19:42
I refuse to comment on the grounds that it might incriminate me. Some things are only TOO clear.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 26 2011 at 20:07
Originally posted by giselle giselle wrote:

I refuse to comment on the grounds that it might incriminate me. Some things are only TOO clear.
 
Hmmm...you weasel around a definitive answer like a politician. Wink
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