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Are RUSH actually Prog?

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dr wu23 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2021 at 14:04
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by mathman0806 mathman0806 wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Why is BOC considered prog here? Their early album are no more prog than their last.

BOC is labeled prog-related here.
Ok then, why is BOC considered prog related here?

Yes..I agree on that... none of the bands in that 'prog related' section are really prog rock bands imho.
And if you notice the 'prog related' and 'proto prog' categories on the banner page even have a different color highlight setting them apart from the other prog categories.  
Hint....they aren't actually prog but we included them to make the forum more inclusive since many of them are huge bands and it would piss off too many people if they weren't here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote essexboyinwales Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2021 at 14:29
Some of the time.


There, end of thread....


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2021 at 19:45
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

^ dare i ask what's wrong with Steely Dan? 

As a diehard Steely Dan fan, I don't hear it other than maybe one or two tracks each on Aja and Royal Scam.  Royal Scam has its fusion-like moments but even it isn't fusion through and through.  To riff on what BaldFriede said, if there is no place for Barbara Dennerlein in the jazz-fusion section of this website, I don't see how there is for Steely Dan. Yes, I know, if X then Y is not a good argument etc, I've been a collab too.  This is not an addition/suggestion argument.  I just don't hear a whole lot of prog in Steely Dan.  Which doesn't mean it isn't extremely sophisticated music.  But all sophisticated rock and rock related music isn't necessarily prog.  Would you make room for Fiona Apple here?  Didn't think so.

is crossover prog or prog-related a better fit for them? 

They were indeed in crossover prog before.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2021 at 21:43
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

^ dare i ask what's wrong with Steely Dan? 

As a diehard Steely Dan fan, I don't hear it other than maybe one or two tracks each on Aja and Royal Scam.  Royal Scam has its fusion-like moments but even it isn't fusion through and through.  To riff on what BaldFriede said, if there is no place for Barbara Dennerlein in the jazz-fusion section of this website, I don't see how there is for Steely Dan. Yes, I know, if X then Y is not a good argument etc, I've been a collab too.  This is not an addition/suggestion argument.  I just don't hear a whole lot of prog in Steely Dan.  Which doesn't mean it isn't extremely sophisticated music.  But all sophisticated rock and rock related music isn't necessarily prog.  Would you make room for Fiona Apple here?  Didn't think so.

is crossover prog or prog-related a better fit for them? 

They were indeed in crossover prog before.

I agree that the "prog" label has just grown far to big.  I LOVE Steely Dan, they had some of the best jazz-rock guitarists in the business, but I never really considered them "progressive" as opposed to "damn fine rock band." 

Where do we draw the line?  The funk band Parliament would be considered prog using our metrics.  I like them as well, but don't put them in with Yes or King Crimson.

Queen, Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin etc.  Barely prog except for the occasional song. 


Edited by cstack3 - May 05 2021 at 21:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2021 at 23:17
^ yes, lets reignite the Queen were never prog ever argument. That was where PA itself jumped the shark lol!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nick_h_nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2021 at 00:47
Queen were as prog as Pink Floyd. For some people that means neither were prog. For some people that means both were prog. The idea that one is prog and one is not is strange to me, but seems to be fairly normal around here. Right up to Jazz, Queen were releasing prog albums. Their trajectory is somewhat similar to Genesis, in that they have a period where it is fairly clearly prog, and intermediate period where it’s a little more arguable, and then a period where they focused on a poppier sound, but still maintained the occasional proggy notes within their albums (even if they were far less obvious). From Queen to A Day at the Races would be, for me, that first period. News of the World and Jazz would be their Trick and Wind. And from The Game it’s all downhill as far as a prog fan is concerned. But just as a lot of prog fans still enjoy Genesis from the ‘80s pop and beyond, so do a lot of prog fans still enjoy Queen over this time period.

To me, suggesting Queen is not prog is no more or less ridiculous than asking if Rush were ever prog. They were, but both exist in the grey area that is outside what a lot of people consider prog, meaning some people will never consider them prog, and others will argue ‘till the cows come home that they are.

Ultimately, it doesn’t matter what others think, or even what this site thinks. What YOU think is or is not prog should be all that matters to you. Unless you are a collaborator for this site, and have to decide whether something is prog according to this site, it really doesn’t matter what others think about the music you do (or don’t) listen to. Listening to music should be for enjoyment, not classification.

Finally, as I’ve already said, if it’s not music you particularly like, why would you care enough to spend time arguing about. I like to talk about the bands and artists that I enjoy and who interest me. I’d rather be a glass half full kind of person, spending my time and attention on things I like, than a glass half full kind of person, worrying about things that don’t really matter to me. 🤷🏻‍♂️

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2021 at 00:59
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:


I agree that the "prog" label has just grown far to big.  I LOVE Steely Dan, they had some of the best jazz-rock guitarists in the business, but I never really considered them "progressive" as opposed to "damn fine rock band." 

Where do we draw the line?  The funk band Parliament would be considered prog using our metrics.  I like them as well, but don't put them in with Yes or King Crimson.

Queen, Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin etc.  Barely prog except for the occasional song. 

Queen and Led Zeppelin are under prog related so no one should question why they're on PA. 

Deep Purple is under proto-prog for the Evans era and I agree. They also had occasional prog songs later on as well. 

This thread is ridiculous in places, but I would not expect anything good from "Why X (band/artist) is on PA or is prog?" Unhappy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nick_h_nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2021 at 01:07
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

This thread is ridiculous in places, but I would not expect anything good from "Why X (band/artist) is on PA or is prog?" Unhappy

^ This.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2021 at 02:04
Guys we need to just call everything rock and start over, go back, we effed it up lol.

"I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Blacksword Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2021 at 02:33
They were for a while. Nothing else to say really that hasn't already been said.

Is there an issue?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2021 at 02:45
^Heh..I was thinking the same thing. How this thread ever made it to 14 pages I’ll never understand

...though to be fair, some cats tend to equal what they don’t particularly dig..as not being prog. To some prog is not a genre/style/vast umbrella but more of a yardstick.

Also Gentle Giant is not a prog band. Just listen to Civilian. Yes doesn’t deserve to be on PA either...I mean have you ever listened to Big Generator? Nahh we need the pure pork for this site!


Edited by Guldbamsen - May 06 2021 at 02:46
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2021 at 09:07
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:


To me, suggesting Queen is not prog is no more or less ridiculous than asking if Rush were ever prog. They were, but both exist in the grey area that is outside what a lot of people consider prog, meaning some people will never consider them prog, and others will argue ‘till the cows come home that they are.


I don't see a parallel between Rush and Queen when it comes to prog.  Queen could be said to be prog in the same way you could say that about Beatles.  They had certain songs that seemed to scream prog but they could also completely change gears and NOT do prog at all.  Because that's just how eclectic they were.

Whereas Rush definitely had a style oriented towards taking a riff and tossing it over in a hundred different ways which is the essence of prog.  2112, Xanadu, Cygnus 1 & 2, Trees, La Villa, Natural Science, Jacob's Ladder - I don't understand what argument could possibly be made against their being prog.  That they did have not so overwhelmingly prog songs like Entre Nous only puts them in a Genesis like basket.  Both bands could write songs with the prog quotient toned down but still in the style and signature identifiable as Genesis/Rush.  

While, with Queen, if you took away Freddie's voice, you wouldn't know that Killer Queen, Death On Two Legs, Crazy Little Thing Called Love were all the same band.  Queen just had incredible range and I don't find it a controversial or debate worthy point as to whether they were prog because that matters about as much as arguing whether LZ or Who were.  These were all, along with Beatles, just the greatest rock bands ever.  It can hardly be mandatory to include every great rock band in the progarchives because they have some tenuous connection to prog and nor do people depend on progarchives to discover Queen/Who/LZ. 


Edited by rogerthat - May 06 2021 at 09:08
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2021 at 09:12
And on that note, gonna listen to Natural Science.  Been so long, love that song.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Howlett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2021 at 09:29
Originally posted by Un Amico Un Amico wrote:

Yes...I don't know why it bothers me that they are considered Prog, but it does.

Probably because they were able to do it in a very widely palatable way, as well as that they moved through many phases of styles throughout the last quarter of the 20th century. I think their albums from 1975-1982 have many pretty clearly prog songs, along with some HR songs with proggy elements.


Edited by Howlett - May 06 2021 at 09:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote The Anders Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2021 at 09:31
I don't particularly like bands like Rush or Yes, but arguing that they aren't prog just because of that would be foolish of me.

I've never actually been a fan of the word prog. It alludes that music with that label on it is more progressive than other types of music, and that is clearly not the case. Progressiveness can have many different faces. On the other hand, I don't know what else to call it.

If you look up prog rock in the Danish national encyclopedia, you will be redirected to 'Symfonisk rock' (symphonic rock), but that would essentially exclude the likes of Pink Floyd. 'Symfonisk rock' prevailed here at least until the 1990's - probably because 'progressiv' mostly meant 'left wing' in Denmark, so people would associate it with socialist rock bands.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2021 at 10:03
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:


To me, suggesting Queen is not prog is no more or less ridiculous than asking if Rush were ever prog. They were, but both exist in the grey area that is outside what a lot of people consider prog, meaning some people will never consider them prog, and others will argue ‘till the cows come home that they are.


I don't see a parallel between Rush and Queen when it comes to prog.  Queen could be said to be prog in the same way you could say that about Beatles.  They had certain songs that seemed to scream prog but they could also completely change gears and NOT do prog at all.  Because that's just how eclectic they were.

Whereas Rush definitely had a style oriented towards taking a riff and tossing it over in a hundred different ways which is the essence of prog.  2112, Xanadu, Cygnus 1 & 2, Trees, La Villa, Natural Science, Jacob's Ladder - I don't understand what argument could possibly be made against their being prog.  That they did have not so overwhelmingly prog songs like Entre Nous only puts them in a Genesis like basket.  Both bands could write songs with the prog quotient toned down but still in the style and signature identifiable as Genesis/Rush.  

While, with Queen, if you took away Freddie's voice, you wouldn't know that Killer Queen, Death On Two Legs, Crazy Little Thing Called Love were all the same band.  Queen just had incredible range and I don't find it a controversial or debate worthy point as to whether they were prog because that matters about as much as arguing whether LZ or Who were.  These were all, along with Beatles, just the greatest rock bands ever.  It can hardly be mandatory to include every great rock band in the progarchives because they have some tenuous connection to prog and nor do people depend on progarchives to discover Queen/Who/LZ. 

Wait...you are telling me that you don't immediately recognize a Queen song like Killer Queen or Death On Two Legs based on just Brian May's riffs? I don't need to hear Freddie Mercury singing on those first four albums to know its Queen.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2021 at 10:08
The hell with Rush. I want to know if prog is really prog. Give examples please.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2021 at 10:35
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

The hell with Rush. I want to know if prog is really prog. Give examples please.

Sounds like a poll........make sure you have 10 different choice answer options.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2021 at 10:47
Let's get this thread to 100 pages!! Beer
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2021 at 21:26
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Wait...you are telling me that you don't immediately recognize a Queen song like Killer Queen or Death On Two Legs based on just Brian May's riffs? I don't need to hear Freddie Mercury singing on those first four albums to know its Queen.

Don't go that deep into it, just listen to the piano intros of both songs and they are really far apart.  Way more so than you'd find on any Rush track.  That is my only point.  That with a band that boasts the mind boggling variety of Queen, debating its classification is kinda pointless.  Just call it rock and leave it be, that's the best fit there is.
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