The fathers of Prog Metal

Blue Oyster Cult?

lol, how about that, wiki contradicting itself.  Anyway I don't agree with defining Sabbath in general as rock.  By the time of Heaven and Hell, they were certainly a metal band in the 80s sense of the word, notwithstanding the influence of their 70s work on metal.   By the way, Judas Priest is missing in this discussion.  The only real qualification Iron Maiden have over Judas Priest is they have a few more long tracks with non standard structures and also the occasional instrumentals.   But JP more or less tick all 8 boxes and, erm, embraced changes to their sound a lot more willingly than Iron Maiden imho.     There is also no doubt that Iron Maiden were and are a lot more popular than JP and influence goes hand in hand with that to some extent.

Edited by rogerthat - September 19 2013 at 10:56

Unfortunately Wikipedia wasn't alive in the 1970 so cannot be regarded as the definitive reference.

octopus-4 wrote: True, but I've never heard the word "prog" before the 80s. Sabbath, Zeppelin and Deep Purple were actually labeled "Hard Rock" while for bands like Genesis and Gentle Giant, at least in Italy, they were referred to as generic "pop/rock" (very misleading)

Dean wrote: progbethyname wrote: Well, I find your last point here very interesting about your opinion on 'the fathers of Prog' question that I asked you. I think the rest of what we spoke about can be put to bed, but I do appreciate all those other discussions. As for your 8 point logic chart to illustrate your deductive reasoning for the fathers of Prog is interesting and I do agree with a lot of what you said except for your timeline 1987-1989 where prog metal became more refined from the beginnings of typical metal. I'd scale it back, and this is just my opinion cause I'm not gonna say your 'wrong', but consider between 1984-1986 as the obvious Prog metal evolving period. Look at albums like Queensrÿche's The Warning (1984) Rage for Order (1986) Fates Warning: Awaken The Guardian (1986) Metallica's Master of Puppets (1986) and lastly Ironic Maiden's Somewhere In Time (1986) :) I think all of these albums are albums that consistantly show an emergence of the metal primordial soup as you call it. So all in all, I think this would be the key time period of refined, consistent Prog metal emergence. Just an opinion of course. '87-89 wasn't chosen without carefull consideration and with regard to what was happening at the time, as opposed to how we look at from the benefit of hindsight. As you must be aware by now, I doggedly resist revisionism and the rewritting of history by Johnny-come-lately's who apply genre definitions retrospectively. progbethyname wrote: And lastly Sir Dean, this is a bit off topic though, for a man that greatly discredits philosophy you certainly have a love for Logic in the critical thinking manner of things. Surely you must see that. Take for example Aristotilian Logics like the use of the Syllogism. It's very similar to how you deduce your reasoning to ultimately gather a conclusion that is logical to your premise. You solve problems very similar to Aristotle. My opinion, and don't hate for this, but philosophy is with in you big-time. Come on...embrace the love. It's ok. Logic is good. I only bring that up cause I remember your distaste for philosophy on an academic level in secondlifesyndrome's forum 'The Prog Mind' or as you called The Prog Borg or something. Funny nonetheless. All in good fun though. I suspect you are oversimplifying my objections to philosophy and philosophers. Logic and problem solving is what I do for a living - you cannot solve problems just with knowledge, (ie a crib-sheet and a list of FAQs) or by random chance. I see this illogical approach everyday at work and it drives me to a place that is someway between despair and distraction - it's lucky charm engineering - the "it worked last time so I'll do it every time" approach (which is applying superstition not logic); it's the "Have you rebooted the modem?" school of IT (un)help-desk; it's the "clutching at straws" method to be used when thinking is too difficult. (Dragging this back on topic) it's picking a loud band from antiquity at random and calling them the "fathers of whatevs". If someone picks a particular artist as being the father of progressive metal then they must have applied some logical reasoning to arrive at that conclusion, because if it was simply gut-feel then that constitutes a guess.   Aristotle is credited with formulating the scientific method that I will merrily quote as a mantra when it is applicable, it is not methodology that should be applied to non scientific matters for example. It is a robust methodology that has stood the test of time and it is a methodology not a philosophy. When in a playful frame of mind I put Aristotle in the Scientist camp (he called it "natural philosophy" because they didn't have a word for "science" in ancient Greece), not the Philosopher camp - I have no interest in his "opinion" or navel-gazing on politics, ethics, the meaning of life or the best place in Athens for baklava. If he had a logical way of solving problems then that is a general human trait and not something he invented - humans are naturally capable of solving problems and drawing conclusions - if there is a rustle in your hedgerow then logical reasoning is used to determine whether that is a threat or a source of food - the fight or flee response is resolved by rational thinking, not by assuming some lackey is dusting down the brambles for imminent inspection by the queen of May and thus is no cause of alarm, that is of little consolation if a wild boar takes a chunk out of your leg. If we achieve a rational conclusion by applying a deductive process that someone has called syllogistic deduction then we were doing that long before Aristotle.

Ok so a slight case of over-Bombing may occur here in my response because their is only a couple of wrinkles in my forehead. 1) is I want to be clear that Aristotle didn't definitively create 1 certain paradigm to solve problems that we as humans have to perscribe to logically break down a certain problem. I just stated that he a way, and a good one at that. :)
It's all formulaic and it incites some pretty interesting concepts to solve some problems using words or sentences like math equations. In any case, as you said and again I think your right that it is a methodology, but here is were my second concern comes in. The concept and theory of what a methodological approach means and how it is put into action is derived from philosophy! Lol you could say the methodological approach to solving problems to gather answers correctly is analogiously, a sub genre of philosophy like how Prog metal is a sub genre to Metal as you've argued articulately. The principals of philosophy are solely built around epistemology meaning what we can know, and 'methodology' is one of those glaring processes that the human takes on to solve issues in life and that is all rooted in philosophy.
I know we are going off, or at least I am, on a slight tangent but from the principal discussion but my opinion is that the Greeks have it right and I think it could be from all that baklava they were eating. :) lol.

Anyways. I have noticed The poll showing 'Sabbath' as The leading choice for fathering Prog metal, and I'd have to say that would be not correct because Sabbath and Judas Priest are the fathers of 'Metal.' would you agree on that possibly?

Also Dean, it's too bad that you see Philosophy as this 'clutching at straws' approach to our existential way of gathering knowledge or 'The Logos' as our friends, well maybe just mine, the Greeks would say.
I cannot agree with this statement you have made, and it's too bad that philosophy is a pretty trite thing to you cause I think you make a great one, especially considering your image as 'looking like Gandolf' lol.
I can see you partaking with other great thinkers of our time in the Lyceum (school of thought.)

I am sorry Dean, but even how you dispute philosophy is philosophical. Lol. You are a part of it and it is a part of you.
That's how I see it....you can call me 'Wrong' now. ;)

progbethyname wrote: Ok so a slight case of over-Bombing may occur here in my response because their is only a couple of wrinkles in my forehead. 1) is I want to be clear that Aristotle didn't definitively create 1 certain paradigm to solve problems that we as humans have to perscribe to logically break down a certain problem. I just stated that he a way, and a good one at that. :) It's all formulaic and it incites some pretty interesting concepts to solve some problems using words or sentences like math equations. In any case, as you said and again I think your right that it is a methodology, but here is were my second concern comes in. The concept and theory of what a methodological approach means and how it is put into action is derived from philosophy! Lol you could say the methodological approach to solving problems to gather answers correctly is analogiously, a sub genre of philosophy like how Prog metal is a sub genre to Metal as you've argued articulately. The principals of philosophy are solely built around epistemology meaning what we can know, and 'methodology' is one of those glaring processes that the human takes on to solve issues in life and that is all rooted in philosophy. I know we are going off, or at least I am, on a slight tangent but from the principal discussion but my opinion is that the Greeks have it right and I think it could be from all that baklava they were eating. :) lol.

Dean wrote: progbethyname wrote: Ok so a slight case of over-Bombing may occur here in my response because their is only a couple of wrinkles in my forehead. 1) is I want to be clear that Aristotle didn't definitively create 1 certain paradigm to solve problems that we as humans have to perscribe to logically break down a certain problem. I just stated that he a way, and a good one at that. :) It's all formulaic and it incites some pretty interesting concepts to solve some problems using words or sentences like math equations. In any case, as you said and again I think your right that it is a methodology, but here is were my second concern comes in. The concept and theory of what a methodological approach means and how it is put into action is derived from philosophy! Lol you could say the methodological approach to solving problems to gather answers correctly is analogiously, a sub genre of philosophy like how Prog metal is a sub genre to Metal as you've argued articulately. The principals of philosophy are solely built around epistemology meaning what we can know, and 'methodology' is one of those glaring processes that the human takes on to solve issues in life and that is all rooted in philosophy. I know we are going off, or at least I am, on a slight tangent but from the principal discussion but my opinion is that the Greeks have it right and I think it could be from all that baklava they were eating. :) lol. You are still over simplifying my objections to philosophy and philosophers. And I also think you are putting the cart before the horse. Problem solving is a natural thing for humans to do, it's a natural thing for many non-human animals too. You can see this process develop in smal children as they learn about the world around them - they do not learn about philosophy, methodology and techniques, they explore their environment and rationalise it all by themselves  - we can nurture and guide that process, but it happens without any assistance from the parent/teacher. There is a famous experiment using a mirror to test for self-awareness - I think as an experiment it is flawed and gives specious results (I don't believe it demonstrates self-awareness at all), but hey-ho, it's a fun experiment anyway - human infants, feline kittens and elephant calfs react to seeing their reflection in a mirror in exactly the same way: at first they think it is another infant/kitten/calf, then they look behind it as if it were a sheet of glass, then they realise it is themselves. After that they are never fooled again into thinking it is another child, kitten or calf. The deductive process they follow is a logical one and it has nothing to do with philosophy, but a philosopher may study that process and produce a methodology based upon it. The process is rooted in nature, not in philosophy, philosophy is just a way of describing it.   This is cart and horse reasoning is a symptomatic error that people make all the time - science describes how nature works, it does not define how nature works.   progbethyname wrote: Also Dean, it's too bad that you see Philosophy as this 'clutching at straws' approach to our existential way of gathering knowledge or 'The Logos' as our friends, well maybe just mine, the Greeks would say. I cannot agree with this statement you have made, and it's too bad that philosophy is a pretty trite thing to you cause I think you make a great one, especially considering your image as 'looking like Gandolf' lol. I can see you partaking with other great thinkers of our time in the Lyceum (school of thought.) I am sorry Dean, but even how you dispute philosophy is philosophical. Lol. You are a part of it and it is a part of you. That's how I see it....you can call me 'Wrong' now. ;) I did not say philosophy was "clutching at straws" - I said that non-deductive problem solving was "clutching at straws". [note: this is not the same as "trial and error" methodology, which should follow a deductive path of modifyng the subsequent trial based upon the error in the previous trial - clutching at straws has no rational path].   Now, no more clues. Back to the topic please: progbethyname wrote: Anyways. I have noticed The poll showing 'Sabbath' as The leading choice for fathering Prog metal, and I'd have to say that would be not correct because Sabbath and Judas Priest are the fathers of 'Metal.' would you agree on that possibly? Nail - Hammer - Head - Contact. That is precisely my point from page 1 or 2 or 3 or whatever. The fathers of Metal cannot also be the fathers of Prog Metal - Prog Metal was born out of Metal, ergo the Father of Prog Metal has to a Metal band, and it cannot be one of the bands that sired the metal genre. More "Greek" logic no doubt, but logic none the less.

with regards to our last discussion point I cannot find no fault in this.
Thank you for a quality discussion on this matter.

^ Power Chords doth not a genre make.

^ There is no question that three of those four are the most important bands from the beginnings of Progressive Metal as a subgenre. No one can dispute that, even a long-suffering Savatage fan such as I. But they are not the fathers, they are the begotten sons. Sabbath and Rush are also very important and Sabbath in particular is a very influential band for the whole of metal, as I opinioned a so many pages back - the Grandfathers of Prog Metal even.

Closer to the Heart (Rush)

Die Young (Black Sabbath)

Flight of Icarus (Iron Maiden)

In Trance (Scorpions)

Saints in Hell (Judus Priest)

Under the Milky Way (The Cross)

Almost Cut my Hair (Crosby Stills Nash & Young)
Bullet the Blue Sky (U2)
For the Love of Money (O'Jays)
For what it's Worth (Buffalo Springfield)
Gonna get Close to You (Dalbello)
Heaven on their Minds (Andrew Lloyd Webber)
Innuendo (Queen)
Lady Jane(The Rolling Stones)
Neon Knights (Black Sabbath)
Red Rain (Peter Gabriel)

Running Free (Iron Maiden)
Synchronicity II (The Police)
Welcome to the Machine (Pink Floyd)

Wish You Were Here (Pink Floyd)

Wrathchild (Iron Maiden)

Edited by Dean - September 20 2013 at 05:12

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Maiden Steve Harris, Iron Maiden's bassist and primary songwriter, has stated that his influences include Black Sabbath, Deep Purple,^[241] Led Zeppelin,^[241] Uriah Heep,^[9] Pink Floyd,^[241] Genesis,^[241] Yes,^[241] Jethro Tull,^[241] Thin Lizzy,^[242] UFO^[243] and Wishbone Ash.^[242] In 2010 Harris stated, "I think if anyone wants to understand Maiden’s early thing, in particular the harmony guitars, all they have to do is listen to Wishbone Ash’s Argus album. Thin Lizzy too, but not as much. And then we wanted to have a bit of a prog thing thrown in as well, because I was really into bands like Genesis and Jethro Tull. So you combine all that with the heavy riffs and the speed, and you’ve got it." 

 

 

Edited by dr wu23 - September 19 2013 at 22:41