Forum Home Forum Home > Progressive Music Lounges > Prog Music Lounge
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - lack of metal knowledge in some reviews
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Topic Closedlack of metal knowledge in some reviews
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 910111213 18>
Author
Message
  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Avantgardehead View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: December 29 2006
Location: Dublin, OH, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1170 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2008 at 04:57
A good deal of prog metal seems to forever dwell within the cesspool of Dream Theater mimicry. Others fall into the pit of metal + keyboards + ridiculous guitar solos + wailing vocals = prog metal. But then you have bands like Enslaved, Pain of Salvation, Devin Townsend, Novembre, Agalloch, maudlin of the Well, etc, who write metal that channels the spirit of 70's/true (uh oh!) prog.
http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian
Back to Top
Certif1ed View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2008 at 05:57
^I'll check out some of the other bands you mention, but having reviewed Pain of Salvation's "Remedy Lane", I can state categorically that it does not "channel the spirit of 70's prog" as I understand it - it's a metal album with riffs and everything.
 
Quite good, but a metal album with a story concept, first and foremost - filled with songs, not Prog Rock compositions.
The important thing is not to stop questioning.
Back to Top
MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21134 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2008 at 06:15
^ Can't there be a way to combine riffs and the spirit of 70's prog? Is "70's prog" so rigid and unflexible that it doesn't allow riffs?
Recently listened to:
Back to Top
Certif1ed View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2008 at 06:26
It depends how they're used - the whole point is that 70s Prog is like the ultimate in flexible rock music.
 
Basing the music on riffs AND standard song structures introduces an inflexibility that is not inherent in the best of 70s Prog (or even some of the worst...).
 
No-one would claim Hawkwind as the ultimate Prog band, for example, but it is the developing soundscape inherent in their music that creates an overall feeling of spontaneity whilst being rooted in a solid structure - and gives rise to them being included among the Prog echelons. Although, tellingly, never the upper echelons - they're not the first band you'd think of when you talk about Prog, but they're too heavy to be punk, too out there to be pop and too punk to be "proper" Prog.
 
So we get them Big%20smile
The important thing is not to stop questioning.
Back to Top
MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21134 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2008 at 06:36
^ Still waiting for you to tear apart Heaven's Cry ... I think they're came very close to combining Metal and 70's Prog. Psychotic Waltz also come to mind here, but of course they're less symphonic/melodic.
Recently listened to:
Back to Top
Certif1ed View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2008 at 06:54

"Symphonic" and "melodic" are not essential components of Prog - I just trawled YouTube for Enslaved, which is very melodic (and while I liked them, they're utterly predictable) Viking Metal - but not Prog, as I expected. Kinda made me think of a much lighter and less rhythmically pedantic Cradle of Filth.

I'd forgotten about "Heaven's Cry"... trawling now.
 
 
 
/edit 2: What do you think of Panzerballett?


Edited by Certif1ed - May 08 2008 at 07:04
The important thing is not to stop questioning.
Back to Top
MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21134 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2008 at 07:02
^ lol ... it's not only a remix, but also a different band ... here's the real one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwza4uNvQhY

Smile
Recently listened to:
Back to Top
Certif1ed View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2008 at 07:58
Exactly what I'd expect.
 
Sounds just like modern metal that wants to be Prog - but it's missing the whole "Prog" thing altogether. The thing with 70's Prog is that it's in no way generic, as this song is; it's a style (and a somewhat narrow metal style at that), rather than a compositional approach.
 
It could be any of 100 "Prog" bands I've reviewed on Garageband recently - none of whom have appreciated my comments, for some bizarre reason... Evil%20Smile
 
Think of King Crimson, Genesis, Gentle Giant, VDGG, ELP, Yes, Focus - even Camel. What do they have in common apart from sounding exactly like themselves?
 
Prog is not a style or fashion, it's an approach - or a (free) spirit, as Avantgardehead put it.
 
The important thing is not to stop questioning.
Back to Top
Rocktopus View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: March 02 2006
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 4202 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2008 at 08:19
Trinacria (Enslaved + Fe-mail = metal+noise). A lot more metal than noise, but still a 100 times more interesting than Heaven's Cry, Psychotic Waltz etc. Both great, but Turn Away's the most intersting one imo.
Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
But don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
Back to Top
MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21134 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2008 at 08:54
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Exactly what I'd expect.
 
Sounds just like modern metal that wants to be Prog - but it's missing the whole "Prog" thing altogether. The thing with 70's Prog is that it's in no way generic, as this song is; it's a style (and a somewhat narrow metal style at that), rather than a compositional approach.
 
It could be any of 100 "Prog" bands I've reviewed on Garageband recently - none of whom have appreciated my comments, for some bizarre reason... Evil%20Smile
 
Think of King Crimson, Genesis, Gentle Giant, VDGG, ELP, Yes, Focus - even Camel. What do they have in common apart from sounding exactly like themselves?
 
Prog is not a style or fashion, it's an approach - or a (free) spirit, as Avantgardehead put it.
 


You say that Prog is not a style. Yet you complain about the style of that Heaven's Cry song. If Prog is not a style, how can the style of a song be an indication of whether it's prog or not?

I really hope that at one point you'll find the time to listen to one of the two HC albums in full length. I'm not exactly expecting you to change your mind, but somehow I resent the notion of HC being "generic". That one song which is available on Youtube is not a good indication anyway, the songs on their myspace page offer a better overview of their music. But as with any good prog band: If you want to know what their albums are like you'll need to listen to them in full!
Recently listened to:
Back to Top
TheProgtologist View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin

Joined: May 23 2005
Location: Baltimore,Md US
Status: Offline
Points: 27802 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2008 at 09:43
Originally posted by Rocktopus Rocktopus wrote:

Trinacria (Enslaved + Fe-mail = metal+noise). A lot more metal than noise, but still a 100 times more interesting than Heaven's Cry, Psychotic Waltz etc. Both great, but Turn Away's the most intersting one imo.
 
I just recently discovered Trinacria...great band! Clap


Back to Top
Trademark View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: November 21 2006
Location: oHIo
Status: Offline
Points: 1009 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2008 at 11:39
Mike,   As you know Cert and I are in relative agreement on this subject, BUT... I finally did take the Heaven's Cry plunge at your suggestion and I find them to be pretty good.  There's are hints of Magic Pie, Overhead, and maybe early Garden Wall in there that I rather like.  The main thing I appreciate from them is the fact that the playing does not get in the way of the songs, kinda like Fate's Warning in that way.  A Good solid 3.5 stars from a non- Prog metal fan.
Back to Top
popeyethecat View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: March 04 2008
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 190 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2008 at 13:13
Perhaps a Prog Metal band that incorporates more "true" elements, if you wish to call it that, would be Ephel Duath. I only have one track from a compilation CD (I think you can stream the very same one on here), but it certainly has jazz elements, at least. Less riff based than  a lot of prog metal, in my opinion, but I may, of course be wrong. Their other music may prove a little more...usual.
Back to Top
Pnoom! View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: September 02 2006
Location: OH
Status: Offline
Points: 4981 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2008 at 13:39
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

^I'll check out some of the other bands you mention, but having reviewed Pain of Salvation's "Remedy Lane", I can state categorically that it does not "channel the spirit of 70's prog" as I understand it - it's a metal album with riffs and everything.
 
Quite good, but a metal album with a story concept, first and foremost - filled with songs, not Prog Rock compositions.
 
not mutually exclusive
Back to Top
MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21134 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2008 at 14:51
Originally posted by Trademark Trademark wrote:

Mike,   As you know Cert and I are in relative agreement on this subject, BUT... I finally did take the Heaven's Cry plunge at your suggestion and I find them to be pretty good.  There's are hints of Magic Pie, Overhead, and maybe early Garden Wall in there that I rather like.  The main thing I appreciate from them is the fact that the playing does not get in the way of the songs, kinda like Fate's Warning in that way.  A Good solid 3.5 stars from a non- Prog metal fan.


I'm glad you enjoyed them!Smile
Recently listened to:
Back to Top
The T View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2008 at 15:13
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by Trademark Trademark wrote:

Mike,   As you know Cert and I are in relative agreement on this subject, BUT... I finally did take the Heaven's Cry plunge at your suggestion and I find them to be pretty good.  There's are hints of Magic Pie, Overhead, and maybe early Garden Wall in there that I rather like.  The main thing I appreciate from them is the fact that the playing does not get in the way of the songs, kinda like Fate's Warning in that way.  A Good solid 3.5 stars from a non- Prog metal fan.


I'm glad you enjoyed them!Smile
 
Nothing to do with the subject but RVS records (Heaven's Cry label) robbed me 12 EUROS as I paid and they never delivered or answered my emails..Cry So I'm off to a awful start with that band... But, stubborn after hearing Mike's praise, I ordered it again from another source, and I hope I'll be enjoying it soon...
 
So, please, if you read Mike's comments, don't rush an buy the album from the label... it doesn't exist anymore I think. get it from another local source.
 
This has been a public service announcement for your financial health from The T
Back to Top
MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21134 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2008 at 15:33
^ I'm sorry to hear that. I hope you're aware that their albums are available for download on their website ... of course it doesn't compare to owning the CD, but at least for their first album it's the only way to get to listen to it.
Recently listened to:
Back to Top
Certif1ed View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2008 at 17:24
Originally posted by Pnoom! Pnoom! wrote:

Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

^I'll check out some of the other bands you mention, but having reviewed Pain of Salvation's "Remedy Lane", I can state categorically that it does not "channel the spirit of 70's prog" as I understand it - it's a metal album with riffs and everything.
 
Quite good, but a metal album with a story concept, first and foremost - filled with songs, not Prog Rock compositions.
 
not mutually exclusive
 
I'm differentiating between standard song form (intro, verse, chorus, etc), which is an easy way of cobbling a piece of music together, and a composition in a form more elaborate than standard song - so they are mutually exclusive from that point of view.
The important thing is not to stop questioning.
Back to Top
Pnoom! View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: September 02 2006
Location: OH
Status: Offline
Points: 4981 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2008 at 17:28
It would be worthwhile to clarify that distinction then (as you have just done), since Supper's Ready is still a song in the general sense.
Back to Top
keiser willhelm View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 14 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1697 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2008 at 18:31
im extremely biased when it comes to this and i am not in anyway belittling traditional PM or Tech PM, i love them both to death, but the metal more true to the seventies spirit of compositional pieces and development rather than verse and chorus songs is the Experimental/Post sub genre.

What im listening to
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 910111213 18>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.133 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.