Author |
Topic Search Topic Options
|
Peter
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 9669
|
Posted: August 18 2010 at 01:21 |
"You won't know until you try it" is one thing, and valid, but "you won't know until you try it for a long time, or repeatedly" is quite another, and illogical. It implies that adults are ill-equiped to discern their own tastes.
In effect, you say: I don't know what I like.
Guess you'd better marry her, and stay married for a good while, before you decide whether or not you like her....
(We could extend your illogic to trying jobs, fields of post-secondary study, countries to live in, clothes to wear, food to buy, genders to have sex with, etc: stick with it -- you might learn to like it -- but then again, maybe not....)
Edited by Peter - August 18 2010 at 01:44
|
"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy.
|
|
Rabid
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 20 2008
Location: Bridge of Knows
Status: Offline
Points: 512
|
Posted: August 18 2010 at 01:46 |
Easy Livin wrote:
We are guitly here of diluting the definition of prog in the cause of popularity and personal taste.
|
But surely, that shows that PA is open-minded and un-biased. I applaud that.
But you've got to have SOME boundaries, I guess, and that's a tricky one......
Who decides what the boundaries are?
I'd say older members, but the younger members would disagree.....
but then again, I'd say younger members, but the older members would disagree....
let's ask WalterDigsTunes.... he's open-minded.
(Sorry Walt....I just had to do it ! )
Edited by Rabid - August 19 2010 at 12:06
|
"...the thing IS, to put a motor in yourself..."
|
|
Pangaea
Forum Groupie
Joined: July 17 2009
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 46
|
Posted: August 18 2010 at 01:54 |
Never in all my online life have I ever seen a site where so many people are hung up on defining things, categorizing things and then trying to shoe-horn others into those defined categories. Unbelieveable.
Back in the day when these bands and artists were just starting out they were just doing their thing, they weren't Progrock or Artrock or Post-Neo-Doucherock or anything. They were just making music. I mean, Lemmy was in Hawkwind for chrissakes.
Edited by Pangaea - August 18 2010 at 01:55
|
|
Rabid
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 20 2008
Location: Bridge of Knows
Status: Offline
Points: 512
|
Posted: August 18 2010 at 02:17 |
moshkito wrote:
You don't see Frank's name listed along side of the "prog" giants in London ...
|
Yo, mosh......that's because no-one in London had heard of him. Not everyone had TVs, here, at that time...
radio stations only played pop, crap, or classical... the only way to get information about new artists was to read Melody Maker, or New Musical Express....and when the media DID find out about Frank, they was more interested in his bowler-hat than his music.
There was no Internet. A 1st Class letter to USA usually took around 28 days. We had two major music shows on TV before Top of the Pops......Juke-Box Jury, and Ready, Steady, Go......neither of which were inclined to spotlight newcomers unless they fitted in with the 'Establishment' view of things.
Edited by Rabid - August 19 2010 at 08:09
|
"...the thing IS, to put a motor in yourself..."
|
|
boo boo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 28 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 905
|
Posted: August 18 2010 at 02:20 |
I explore more obscure prog from time to time, not as excessively as some people, and some people like that can of course be just as smug and obnoxious as your common everyday indie kid.
Edited by boo boo - August 18 2010 at 02:20
|
|
Textbook
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 3281
|
Posted: August 18 2010 at 05:17 |
Peter: Everything you've said is true. Life is a state of flux. Doubt is humble and allows you to see reality and make the best decisions. I won't exist forever and nothing else will either. Rather than illogical, I find not committing to absolute facts entirely logical. It's the old Socratic "I may know nothing but at least I know I know nothing" chestnut.
So with all that in mind, no, I don't know what I like. And what I like today I might not like tomorrow and vice versa.
|
|
infandous
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 23 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2447
|
Posted: August 18 2010 at 07:29 |
Textbook wrote:
Peter: Everything you've said is true. Life is a state of flux. Doubt is humble and allows you to see reality and make the best decisions. I won't exist forever and nothing else will either. Rather than illogical, I find not committing to absolute facts entirely logical. It's the old Socratic "I may know nothing but at least I know I know nothing" chestnut.
So with all that in mind, no, I don't know what I like. And what I like today I might not like tomorrow and vice versa. |
Good for you! A good outlook. However, some of us DO know what we like, and it's doesn't make us "faux" prog fans, no matter what you may think. Implied in Peter's post as well, I think, is the idea that even those of us that know what we like will try new things......unless they are new things in a style or genre we know we don't like. His examples of sitting through whole death metal albums is a good example (or country, or jazz or what have you). I may be willing to listen to a song or two if someone suggests an album in a genre I don't like and say it's "for people who normally don't like" said genre, or something similar. But I'm not going to waste my time on things I know I won't enjoy.
Edited by infandous - August 18 2010 at 07:30
|
|
thehallway
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 13 2010
Location: Dorset, England
Status: Offline
Points: 1433
|
Posted: August 18 2010 at 08:13 |
There's no such thing as a faux prog fan or a faux anything fan. People can like whatever they like and dislike whatever they dislike; but it doesn't matter if it's based around taste or ideology. Well, it doesn't matter to me anyway.
If someone decides to only like Yes and dislike everything else without even hearing it, that's not in any way illegal or frowned upon or morally wrong, it's just their choice. Some things I try and then I decide, but others I don't even give a chance. But nothing happens. It doesn't make you inferior to the people who say "Oh, I'll listen to anything". It just saves you time.
If I said that I had a 40-minute album of someone scratching a blackboard, I think it would be respectively and totally within your right to say "actually, I KNOW I will not enjoy this, so I am not going to listen to it". And I wouldn't judge your desicion even if I thought that particular sound was amazing, and that you had misunderstood it, because it's none of my business.
Basically, it doesn't (shouldn't) make you superior to be more open-minded. There are and always will be, people with wide musical tastes and people with narrow musical tastes. Why is wide respectable and narrow "faux"? The ONLY people it has any effect on are the musicians and their sales. And I never hear them moaning about people's lack of open-mindedness. I usually decide to listen to something new if I've run out of music from a particular genre, 'cos if I haven't, I can carrying on listening to what I know I like.
I could unknowingly be a MASSIVE fan of country music, but I could also spend my whole life never listening to any and not finding out about my secret taste. It wouldn't make a difference to me though. What you don't know can't hurt you, and equally, what you don't know can't please you.
|
|
Devonsidhe
Forum Groupie
Joined: April 21 2010
Location: PDX, OR
Status: Offline
Points: 74
|
Posted: August 18 2010 at 08:53 |
Rabid wrote:
Devonsidhe wrote:
I've used the term "poser" over the years for the same reason. People who pose as something they are not. Most posers or faux will move on when something else becomes popular or they lose interest. A few, however, will learn what they don't know and become real. |
How the hell can someone be termed a poser, for listening to the music they like?
Are you saying that people willingly listen to the music they dislike?
And what's so wrong with 'moving on'?
MY musical taste is MY affair.
|
I was saying the exact opposite. People who pretend to enjoy something they don't so they are thought of as someone who enjoys it. If they really do enjoy it, then they are not posing.
|
Even a man who stumbles around in the dark will influence those he does not see.
|
|
Pangaea
Forum Groupie
Joined: July 17 2009
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 46
|
Posted: August 18 2010 at 10:58 |
Devonsidhe wrote:
Rabid wrote:
Devonsidhe wrote:
I've used the term "poser" over the years for the same reason. People who pose as something they are not. Most posers or faux will move on when something else becomes popular or they lose interest. A few, however, will learn what they don't know and become real. |
How the hell can someone be termed a poser, for listening to the music they like?
Are you saying that people willingly listen to the music they dislike?
And what's so wrong with 'moving on'?
MY musical taste is MY affair.
|
I was saying the exact opposite. People who pretend to enjoy something they don't so they are thought of as someone who enjoys it. If they really do enjoy it, then they are not posing. |
Well, wait a minute . . . . why is that important to anyone else? If someone likes the music or not is for them to discover and if they're only doing it to appear as though they're into it, or hip or for whatever reason, then so what? They feel good being a poser, So why would I care about that? Good for them to feel good about something, even just 'posing' as you call it. You gotta take good feelings when you can.
It's kind of a circular argument: Your disdain for their posing makes you feel superior and somehow gives you some ethical musical edge which makes you feel good, while their posing makes them feel good. Everybody wins! Where's the problem in that? It takes all kinds and even 'posers' have something to offer and learn from. If you have the open-ness to see.
|
|
Peter
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 9669
|
Posted: August 18 2010 at 11:04 |
Textbook wrote:
Peter: Everything you've said is true. Life is a state of flux. Doubt is humble and allows you to see reality and make the best decisions. I won't exist forever and nothing else will either. Rather than illogical, I find not committing to absolute facts entirely logical. It's the old Socratic "I may know nothing but at least I know I know nothing" chestnut.
So with all that in mind, no, I don't know what I like. And what I like today I might not like tomorrow and vice versa. |
I get what you're saying, but I'm still curious as to your age (I'm 50).
I found that my tastes in music became more fixed as I matured.
You know, when we're teens (and maybe in our early 20s) we usually don't really know ourselves, let alone have set tastes in art. We experiment and change a great deal during those formative years. (I was the same.) Over time, we usually stop trying to decide what we want, and start pursuing what we now know we want.
(And sorry if I came across a bit harsh.)
Thus, I don't need to hear an entire 40-50 minutes of music that is just not for me to discern that, nor do I feel I have any obligation to do so. My tastes in music are already quite broad, but not wide open by any means. I think part of maturity (wisdom, or self knowledge, if you like) is the ability to make fairly rapid judgements for yourself on such things, on the basis of prior experience and learning.
Yes, we can "learn to like" many things, and "acquire" tastes, but for me, at least, at this time of life, the possibilities along those lines are more limited (& I seem to know my own limits.).
My music listening & leisure time (indeed, my lifespan) is limited, and less that it was in my younger years. I simply don't have the time, desire, will or patience to subject myself to art (which I turn to for pleasure, and an enjoyable break from the less pleasant aspects of life) which does not soon give me pleasure, or at least apparently fall within the parameters of that which I've found can give me pleasure. Nor am I actively looking for "more more more -- different, different, different) as I used to be. (I can recall "liking" or appreciating music which made me feel almost any strong reaction -- even anxiety. But not now -- I want pleasure.) I found a few new bands here to follow back around 2004-5, but that was enough for me. I'm a prog fan, but I don't really seek out new prog artists much. Keeping up with those I know I like, filling in blanks in my collection -- with limited time & money, that's more than enough such music for me. I have "mapped out" plenty of room for myself to manouever, musically.
Lately, I've explored many new folk artists via Itunes and internet radio (Folk Alley), but that's within the scope of a genre I already KNOW I like. Still, I don't think the expansion in my range of favoured folk artists will be indefinite, nor will it "need" to be -- soon, perhaps, I'll have found more than enough new (to me) folk artists to explore, listen to, and devote my limited time & money to.
As a final example, I used to like roller coasters and horror books and movies -- now I know that i don't like to be scared needlessly, or made to feel revulsion. I have better things to do (for me), and I know what they are.
Sorry for the long post, but I like this topic (even if I took issue with your stance). Thanks for reading!
Edited by Peter - August 18 2010 at 12:32
|
"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy.
|
|
Pangaea
Forum Groupie
Joined: July 17 2009
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 46
|
Posted: August 18 2010 at 11:50 |
Good post Peter.
|
|
Peter
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 9669
|
Posted: August 18 2010 at 12:34 |
^ Thanks Pangaea, and double thanks for reading what some might see as an over-long post!
|
"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy.
|
|
Devonsidhe
Forum Groupie
Joined: April 21 2010
Location: PDX, OR
Status: Offline
Points: 74
|
Posted: August 18 2010 at 12:58 |
Pangaea wrote:
Devonsidhe wrote:
Rabid wrote:
Devonsidhe wrote:
I've used the term "poser" over the years for the same reason. People who pose as something they are not. Most posers or faux will move on when something else becomes popular or they lose interest. A few, however, will learn what they don't know and become real. |
How the hell can someone be termed a poser, for listening to the music they like?
Are you saying that people willingly listen to the music they dislike?
And what's so wrong with 'moving on'?
MY musical taste is MY affair.
|
I was saying the exact opposite. People who pretend to enjoy something they don't so they are thought of as someone who enjoys it. If they really do enjoy it, then they are not posing. |
Well, wait a minute . . . . why is that important to anyone else? If someone likes the music or not is for them to discover and if they're only doing it to appear as though they're into it, or hip or for whatever reason, then so what? They feel good being a poser, So why would I care about that? Good for them to feel good about something, even just 'posing' as you call it. You gotta take good feelings when you can.
It's kind of a circular argument: Your disdain for their posing makes you feel superior and somehow gives you some ethical musical edge which makes you feel good, while their posing makes them feel good. Everybody wins! Where's the problem in that? It takes all kinds and even 'posers' have something to offer and learn from. If you have the open-ness to see. |
I don't have any disdain for posers. merely using it to describe a state of mind. Some people are more comfortable posing to see what something new is like. Others are more comfortable just focusing on the exploring. I guess it is more of a social aspect than anything. Maybe a level of confidence.
Posing isn't about exploring or listening to music that you want to listen to. Posing is about blending in with the crowd so you can feel accepted.
I suppose posing can be either good or bad. James Bond posed all the time while he was trying to save the world. On the other hand, after college, (he who shall not be named) posed as a friend in order to steal another friend's girlfriend. (OK, for him I do have disdain) For most of us, it is just wanting to fit in with the crowd.
|
Even a man who stumbles around in the dark will influence those he does not see.
|
|
Evolver
Special Collaborator
Crossover & JR/F/Canterbury Teams
Joined: October 22 2005
Location: The Idiocracy
Status: Offline
Points: 5482
|
Posted: August 18 2010 at 13:03 |
Wait. Are you saying that there are people out there pretending to enjoy prog rock, a generally unpopular art form, to be popular?
Edited by Evolver - August 18 2010 at 13:04
|
Trust me. I know what I'm doing.
|
|
A Person
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 10 2008
Location: __
Status: Offline
Points: 65760
|
Posted: August 18 2010 at 13:49 |
Evolver wrote:
Wait. Are you saying that there are people out there pretending to enjoy prog rock, a generally unpopular art form, to be popular?
|
I think they would do it to appear intellectual.
|
|
Devonsidhe
Forum Groupie
Joined: April 21 2010
Location: PDX, OR
Status: Offline
Points: 74
|
Posted: August 18 2010 at 13:53 |
Evolver wrote:
Wait. Are you saying that there are people out there pretending to enjoy prog rock, a generally unpopular art form, to be popular?
|
Theoretically -- yes, lol.
I have to admit with the rise of popularity in prog, it may be the next cool. Hey, it happened almost forty years ago.
|
Even a man who stumbles around in the dark will influence those he does not see.
|
|
Evolver
Special Collaborator
Crossover & JR/F/Canterbury Teams
Joined: October 22 2005
Location: The Idiocracy
Status: Offline
Points: 5482
|
Posted: August 18 2010 at 14:26 |
Devonsidhe wrote:
Evolver wrote:
Wait. Are you saying that there are people out there pretending to enjoy prog rock, a generally unpopular art form, to be popular?
|
Theoretically -- yes, lol.
I have to admit with the rise of popularity in prog, it may be the next cool. Hey, it happened almost forty years ago. |
Different times, man. At the time, record companies were run by people that actually liked music.
|
Trust me. I know what I'm doing.
|
|
TheGazzardian
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 11 2009
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 8685
|
Posted: August 18 2010 at 14:46 |
Evolver wrote:
Wait. Are you saying that there are people out there pretending to enjoy prog rock, a generally unpopular art form, to be popular?
|
I do it every Tuesday.
|
|
Evolver
Special Collaborator
Crossover & JR/F/Canterbury Teams
Joined: October 22 2005
Location: The Idiocracy
Status: Offline
Points: 5482
|
Posted: August 18 2010 at 15:00 |
TheGazzardian wrote:
Evolver wrote:
Wait. Are you saying that there are people out there pretending to enjoy prog rock, a generally unpopular art form, to be popular?
|
I do it every Tuesday. |
"Tuesday Afternoon", I suppose.
|
Trust me. I know what I'm doing.
|
|