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elder08 View Drop Down
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Points: 236 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: Book on Prog Drumming/Drummers
    Posted: June 29 2010 at 16:55
Hey guys are there any books on Prog Drumming or even an article?
"There are people who say we [Pink Floyd] should make room for younger bands. That's not the way it works. They can make their own room."- David Gilmour
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Points: 111 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2010 at 19:20
A few of my favorites:

http://www.moderndrummer.com/updatefull/200001726/Gavin%20Harrison

http://www.moderndrummer.com/updatefull/200001609       <<<<<<<<<<<<<< (Mastelotto)

http://www.moderndrummer.com/updatefull/200001603/Mike%20Portnoy

http://www.moderndrummer.com/updatefull/200001570/Marco%20Minnemann


Edited by warrplayer - June 29 2010 at 19:21
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Points: 236 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 01 2010 at 18:08
Thank you man thank you :D
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Points: 11979 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 01 2010 at 18:18


http://www.hudsonmusic.com/hudson/products/rhythmic-designs/

Says the blurb:


The advanced book/DVD package has been created to provide contemporary drummers with a method for studying and developing the technical and musical skills required to perform today’s challenging, progressive drumming styles.

Rhythmic Designs expands on the groundbreaking polyrhythmic, polymetric concepts covered in Harrison’s previously published Rhythmic Illusions, Rhythmic Visions and Rhythmic Horizons books and videos by offering detailed analysis and transcriptions of twenty drum tracks from the recent Gavin Harrison & 05Ric albums “Drop” and “Circles” (featuring guitarist Robert Fripp and keyboardists Dave Stewart and Gary Sanctuary). Along with the 204-page book of note-for-note transcriptions and practice exercises, the double-sided companion DVD features more than two-and-a-half hours of video packed with descriptions and discussions of the drum parts, set-ups, tuning and recording process—plus six minus-drums, play-along tracks.
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Points: 1 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2010 at 21:48
Drum Programming (Percussion)  

DRUM PROGRAMMING (PERCUSSION)
Percussion

Artist: Ray Badness

This is your complete guide to programming and thinking like a drummer - not a drum machine user. Instead of merely providing instructions for you to program into your machine, this book is a direct, mathematical approach to learning how to drum and how to best emulate a drum kit on a pre-recorded track. By following this book, you will gain an understanding of the drum kit that takes many drummers years to learn - and that will lead to more realistic programming and better results! 
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Points: 1 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 24 2010 at 04:21
just strarted bill bruford's autobiography (eponymous title). funny and inciteful at the same time.
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Points: 17510 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 07 2010 at 20:06
Hi,
 
I think that finding good books on this is going to be hard.
 
In essence, that whole section of magazines, from Modern Drummer, to Bass Player, to Electronic Musician, to Keyboard Player, to Guitar Player and so many other magazines ... they are not really interested in the technical side of things ... they make it look like ... but a finger trick is not the mechanics that makes all music ... the person is, and that is one thing that most of those magazines lack.
 
Nothing against Gavin ... and he obviously is technical enough that he can break it down and help others with it ... I guess that makes for a good teacher ... but in the end, he is really not in the league of a Pierre Morelin, a Mani Neumeier, a Keith Moon, a Bonzo.
 
Gavin is a part of a lot of very good music ... with one ... tid bit here ... I wanna take that snare drum and break it in 15 pieces and see if he can still drum! Probably not without getting his brain scrambled. And too many drummers are just good metronomes with a flair here and there on the 4th or 8 th beat ... ohh let me be progressive .... on the 13th beat ... and I'm sorry ... I'm not impressed. Why? There is no feel here ... it's just "batucada" as they say in Brazil! ... you hear many of those at soccer stadia!  Better yet ... he cold learn fro his mate Richard, when that Prophet 5 took a spill and the show still went on 7 hours later with him spending nearly 4 hours backstage programming another synthesizer ... what better teacher than one that can flow and fly and still get it done!
 
Someone explained the Pierre Moerlin drumming in one thread here and how to count in it ... and I can't even find that thread ... and it's a shame that you can not see that ... because if anything it shows how mathematicaly unmethematical Pierre was ... and if you want to see someone do his thing, grab Mike Oldfield "Exposed" the DVD so you can see him ... that, my friend, is not just a drummer ... it's a master musician ... and Gavin is a nice drummer ... but I am not sure that he would fit in the Pierre arena ... even if I like PT as much as I do ... in my book Gavin needs to get rid of a snare drum and now drum baby ... and see what you get ... I don't think he's a good enough "feel" drummer to do that!
 
It's like when I saw Andres Segovia break a string in Madison, WI ... and he didn't flinch, switched spots on the guitar and still went on ... and when he got done with the song, he asked ... did I sound ok? ... he got an ovation for it! ... that, my friend, is a master musician that can play ... the rest are kids with sticks in their hands and some of them with over sized kits that they don't even know how to use!
 
Quote "This is your complete guide to programming and thinking like a drummer "
 
See the problem with this? ... you're no longer listening to the music to accentuate it ... you're only thinking about the time and beat ... is what this tells me ... it doesn't teach you to love/live/die music ... you should not be thinking "like a drummer" .. you should be thinking about how yo ucan make that peiece come alive and make it better ... ever wonder why everything you hear in "prog" only has a snare drum on the 4th beat? Because many of those drummers are not good enough to do anything else but count to 4, in order to play their music?


Edited by moshkito - September 07 2010 at 20:17
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Ruby900 View Drop Down
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Points: 739 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2010 at 09:44
Originally posted by bmoonjohn bmoonjohn wrote:

just strarted bill bruford's autobiography (eponymous title). funny and inciteful at the same time.
Great book this. Get it!!
"I always say that it’s about breaking the rules. But the secret of breaking rules in a way that works is understanding what the rules are in the first place". Rick Wakeman
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Points: 254 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2011 at 01:57
Harry Hughes produced one of the first Rock Drum Tuition books (published by Premier) way way back in late sixties early seventies, including contributions by Bill Bruford and Carl Palmer etc. Hughes is one of the great unsung drummers of the Rock era - just ask the other guys.
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Points: 527 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2011 at 04:38
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Yadda .... Yadda .... I like talking about snares baby hit me one more time ... blah rant blah ....ELLIPSIS....!!.more ... ELLIPSIS..!!
 

Gavin says, "what you talkin bout Willis?" Tongue

 




Edited by TheClosing - March 04 2011 at 00:25
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Proletariat View Drop Down
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Points: 1882 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2011 at 15:19
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,
 
I think that finding good books on this is going to be hard.
 
In essence, that whole section of magazines, from Modern Drummer, to Bass Player, to Electronic Musician, to Keyboard Player, to Guitar Player and so many other magazines ... they are not really interested in the technical side of things ... they make it look like ... but a finger trick is not the mechanics that makes all music ... the person is, and that is one thing that most of those magazines lack.
 
Nothing against Gavin ... and he obviously is technical enough that he can break it down and help others with it ... I guess that makes for a good teacher ... but in the end, he is really not in the league of a Pierre Morelin, a Mani Neumeier, a Keith Moon, a Bonzo.
 
Gavin is a part of a lot of very good music ... with one ... tid bit here ... I wanna take that snare drum and break it in 15 pieces and see if he can still drum! Probably not without getting his brain scrambled. And too many drummers are just good metronomes with a flair here and there on the 4th or 8 th beat ... ohh let me be progressive .... on the 13th beat ... and I'm sorry ... I'm not impressed. Why? There is no feel here ... it's just "batucada" as they say in Brazil! ... you hear many of those at soccer stadia!  Better yet ... he cold learn fro his mate Richard, when that Prophet 5 took a spill and the show still went on 7 hours later with him spending nearly 4 hours backstage programming another synthesizer ... what better teacher than one that can flow and fly and still get it done!
 
Someone explained the Pierre Moerlin drumming in one thread here and how to count in it ... and I can't even find that thread ... and it's a shame that you can not see that ... because if anything it shows how mathematicaly unmethematical Pierre was ... and if you want to see someone do his thing, grab Mike Oldfield "Exposed" the DVD so you can see him ... that, my friend, is not just a drummer ... it's a master musician ... and Gavin is a nice drummer ... but I am not sure that he would fit in the Pierre arena ... even if I like PT as much as I do ... in my book Gavin needs to get rid of a snare drum and now drum baby ... and see what you get ... I don't think he's a good enough "feel" drummer to do that!
 
It's like when I saw Andres Segovia break a string in Madison, WI ... and he didn't flinch, switched spots on the guitar and still went on ... and when he got done with the song, he asked ... did I sound ok? ... he got an ovation for it! ... that, my friend, is a master musician that can play ... the rest are kids with sticks in their hands and some of them with over sized kits that they don't even know how to use!
 
Quote "This is your complete guide to programming and thinking like a drummer "
 
See the problem with this? ... you're no longer listening to the music to accentuate it ... you're only thinking about the time and beat ... is what this tells me ... it doesn't teach you to love/live/die music ... you should not be thinking "like a drummer" .. you should be thinking about how yo ucan make that peiece come alive and make it better ... ever wonder why everything you hear in "prog" only has a snare drum on the 4th beat? Because many of those drummers are not good enough to do anything else but count to 4, in order to play their music?
Exactly! I hate traditional instructional type learning guides. I would suggest watching the anti-instructional video Life On Drums by Billy Martin (of Medeski Martin and Wood) its a great video for drummers and non-drummers alike that advocates finding your own way around the drums and being influenced by other drummers and styles while saying away from strict theory based diciplined approach!!!
who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
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Proletariat View Drop Down
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Points: 1882 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2011 at 15:21
heres a few exerpts on youtube
 
some of the footage is the same unfortunately but thats youtube for you
who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2012 at 20:51
^^ He (yushu) was only a spammer who has already gone away. LOL

Edited by DamoXt7942 - January 19 2012 at 20:52
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Points: 864 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 23 2012 at 10:53
 
Modern Drummer did a nice, recent(ish) article on Van der Graaf Generator's Guy Evans.
 
Aug_2011_Cover
 
 
jc
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Points: 320 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2012 at 11:11
Originally posted by resurrection resurrection wrote:

Harry Hughes produced one of the first Rock Drum Tuition books (published by Premier) way way back in late sixties early seventies, including contributions by Bill Bruford and Carl Palmer etc. Hughes is one of the great unsung drummers of the Rock era - just ask the other guys.
 
This is true
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Points: 8 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 06 2012 at 19:26
Bill Bruford autobiography available here:
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Points: 320 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2012 at 06:46
Does he mention Harry Hughes? He should, as Bruford contributed to Hughes' drum tuition book back then, and also had a few drum clinic sessions with him.
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Points: 17510 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2013 at 10:22
Originally posted by Proletariat Proletariat wrote:

Exactly! I hate traditional instructional type learning guides. I would suggest watching the anti-instructional video Life On Drums by Billy Martin (of Medeski Martin and Wood) its a great video for drummers and non-drummers alike that advocates finding your own way around the drums and being influenced by other drummers and styles while saying away from strict theory based diciplined approach!!!
 
Thanks ... I continually write, specially in here, that the majority of the "progressive" things that we like were not "just" musically inclined ... that they were lyric, or content inclined, and this is something that is difficult fo rmany folks here to relate to ... KC's album is "progressive" but the lyrics are not kind of thing, and the album's strength is in the 100% illustration of the lyrics -- that you can even describe in a conceptual context ... instead of just something that is timing/technically related.
 
Granted, the technical definition helps you do it and learn it, but sometimes, all you have to say is ... there was no numbering or timing during that sequence, because it was all dependent on the feeling on that very moment and night in the performance and one day the note on that solo extended further than the next day and so forth ... for accent, boredom, or whatever reason ... and this is the part that is missing when someone is looking for "instruction".
 
I call it, the third dimention, or the part that will make you a true musician! You'll know that in a zen sort of way, the minute that you let go of the mechanics, and are able to color any moment in time anywhere ... with all the tools you have around you!  And this, btw, is the criticism that Nick Mason gets as being a lousy drummer, because he is not hitting the time stamp like everyone thinks he is supposed to ... he doesn't need to ... because some of the sections were wide open (in the early days) and they were only required to meet at a given point! ... to sit and try to mitigate that into numbers is silly! He's one of the best "feel" drummers out there!


Edited by moshkito - March 26 2013 at 10:37
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Points: 20623 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2013 at 17:10
I read Bruford's bio a while back and enjoyed it...some interesting comments about the music biz and his time in the prog world and the jazz world.
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
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Points: 17510 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2013 at 12:49
Originally posted by Proletariat Proletariat wrote:

...
Exactly! I hate traditional instructional type learning guides. I would suggest watching the anti-instructional video Life On Drums by Billy Martin (of Medeski Martin and Wood) its a great video for drummers and non-drummers alike that advocates finding your own way around the drums and being influenced by other drummers and styles while saying away from strict theory based diciplined approach!!!
 
If you get a chance, just put on Kate Bush's "50 Words for Snow" ... and make a point of never stopping it until it ends. Not only does the whole album NOT comform to any format or idea, but the person in there adding some touches on drums ... makes progressive drummers look and sound like idiots that can only count to 4. It's about the music, not the counting ... and Steve Gadd takes this notion to the stratosphere! I can not imagine any drummer out there that could have done a "time'less" drumming, other than Nick Mason in the "Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun" days!
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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