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altaeria 
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 Topic: Bottom Line on Neo-Prog?
Posted: April 20 2007 at 16:50 |
OK ... What is the Bottom Line on NeoProg, really?
I haven't listened to very much of it -- so what exactly is the deal...in a nutshell?
Take away the release year on the CD and what is it?
Is NeoProg simply SymphonicProg-influenced Rock with overly-slick production and a restrained rhythm section?
I WANT to enjoy early Marillion ...
but the drums (especially but not solely) seem to lack dynamics and the instrumentation lacks grittiness or "edge"
-- and that combination really holds things back for me.
Should I expect the same from other NeoProg bands like IQ or The Watch?
Just wondering.
Edited by altaeria - April 20 2007 at 16:51
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stonebeard
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Posted: April 20 2007 at 17:00 |
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At one end of the spectrum, it's quite simplistic, with a strong but not complex rhythm section. At the other end, it can be nearly indistinguishable from classic progressive rock like Yes.
IQ and the Watch are very different from Marillion. Both are much more similar to Genesis. The Watch sounds like Lamb-era Genesis with a more spacey and less cozy production. Sonically, The Watch and IQ are about the same, but IQ have a unique vocalist (in the way Hammill is unique, but without sounding like Hammill or having the choppy delivery).
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erik neuteboom
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Posted: April 20 2007 at 17:07 |
I just listened to the new The Watch cd entitled Primitive (did they mean the drums  ): their sound is obviously rooted in the Peter Gabriel-era (especially albums like Nursery Cryme and Foxtrot) but the drums are very tight and the compositions are less elaborate, to me this sounds as typical elements from neo-prog. The confusing thing is that the neo-prog scene was speerheaded by Marillion but in fact their first album was more Seventies Classic Prog (70-77 Genesis inspired). From their second album Marillion sounded more as the typical neo-prog (like IQ and Pendragon) and from then, in my opinion, you can talk about the typical neo-prog sound.
Edited by erik neuteboom - April 20 2007 at 17:08
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Certif1ed
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Posted: April 20 2007 at 17:19 |
There's no bottom line - there's good, better and poorer Neo-Prog.
It's a personal thing, but I always interpret genre assignments literally, and "Neo-Prog" is literally what came after Progressive Rock - it's not the same and does not have the same intentions or aspirations, necessarily, as it's from a different era.
Marillion's first album can really suffer, if drums are important to you, but I think it'd still be a fantastic album if someone just sat there slapping their knees in time:
The contrapuntal work is almost unprecedented in rock music - sure it's simple lines, when compared to complex jazz-rock, but that's kinda the point. It's all to do with how the lines work together - very few "Classic" Prog bands managed it - they may have had independent parts working together to produce an amazing and coherent whole, but I can't think of many that made each independent part a strong melody in its own right.
That method of composition is almost unparalleled - and Marillion still do it, to a lesser extent, and the similarities between Marillion's debut and Classic Prog are few and far between - not to mention mostly urban myths (like the comparison between Fish and Gabriel).
Ian Moseley, while compentent, didn't do anything particularly exciting on Fugazi either - but the lights and shades are amazing - I'd hardly call the production slick, although it is (unavoidably) somewhat 1980s, just as Classic prog has a rather 1970s production by default.
Misplaced Childhood is a patchier album, with the odd pop song creeping in amongst somewhat more regressive material.
I couldn't disagree more that the instrumentation lacks dynamic, grittiness or edge on the first 3 Marillion albums - the title track of the first album, for example, starts with an a capella voice, and builds through ripples and then waves to the searing guitar solo.
IQ are a different ball game entirely - they started out rooted in the Classic prog sound, although writing original material, it must be pointed out. They have since developed their own sound, and are very different to Marillion - a key feature of Neo-Prog bands is that the stand-out ones have an instantly indentifiable sound (they've progressed!).
I would also count King Crimson's 1980s albums as Neo-Prog - to me, Discipline typifies King Crimson's approach to Neo-Prog, and are a new approch to Progressive Rock within the Neo-Prog timeline.
Twelfth Night's "Fact and Fiction" comes highly recommended - and Genesis' Duke. The latter seems to get a panning around here sometimes, but to me, it's fantastic Neo Prog.
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Foxtrot
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Posted: April 20 2007 at 17:20 |
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IMO I would suggest you give IQ and The Watch a try, especially: 'Dark Matter' and 'Ever' by IQ, and 'Vacuum' by The Watch. When I evaluate these two bands in comparision with Marillion, I usually end up putting Marillion in 3rd place, often for the same reason you noted. I think you might find the edge you are looking for in these three albums.
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Melomaniac
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Posted: April 20 2007 at 17:24 |
Want some great neo prog ?
Try Arena's following albums : The Visitor, Immortal?, Contagion and Pepper's Ghost.
I also very highly recommend Frost's Milliontown.
And this is from someone who always disliked Marillion, even the classics.
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"One likes to believe in the freedom of Music" - Neil Peart, The Spirit of Radio
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erik neuteboom
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Posted: April 20 2007 at 17:29 |
Good post Certified  I am a 70-77 Genesis freak but I grew up with the neo-prog in the early Eighties, I am a Marillion fan since their Grendel release and I have seen Marillion, Pallas, IQ, Pendragon during their heydays. By the way, Twelfth Night looked like Glam-proggers 
I had a very interesting but a bit endless discussion with Ivan about Dutch progrock bands Cliffhanger and Plackband: in my opinion they play Classic Seventies Prog/Symphonic Prog (obviously mid-Genesis inspired) but Ivan insisted that they are neo-prog (and recently neo-symphonic?). The question in this thread about the bottom-line of neo-prog will be very interesting if you analyse Cliffhanger and Plackband!
Edited by erik neuteboom - April 21 2007 at 05:05
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Certif1ed
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Posted: April 20 2007 at 17:49 |
"Grendel" is the only track that sounds like early Prog - and that's mainly due to the penultimate section, which famously bears a strong resemblance to "Apocalypse in 9/8".
The only other tie to Genesis that I can think of is that Marillion used to cover "I Know What I Like" (only available on bootlegs, as far as I know).
Twelfth Night had several image makeovers - and did paint themselves up like New Romantics at the last gig I saw them at (at the Marquee in 1983, when they recorded "Live and Let Live" - but then, Geoff Mann started out as their backdrop painter... I can hardly compare their music to Glam bands though - much of it sounded more like Joy Division, who by comparison, make any Neo-Prog band seem complex and pretentious. I think that taking the music in the context of the early 1980s helps to make more sense of it.
One of the main qualities of "true" Neo-Prog is the clean lines (easily mistaken for simplicity) and tight rhythmic focus, which helped them fit in alongside the more fashionable music of the times. Even Classic Prog pandered to the fashions of the times - in the early 1970s, complex and grandiose was popular - but in the 1980s, it was not, thanks to the mid 1970s backlash led by punk.
Neo-Prog therefore has an urgent energy that simply isn't present in the more laid-back tones of the 1970s - if you're looking for the same things among the similarities, you won't find them!
We don't talk about Pallas - the prog equivalent of Spandau Ballet...
I don't know the two bands you mention - I'll check them out - thanks!
Edited by Certif1ed - April 20 2007 at 17:51
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erik neuteboom
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Posted: April 20 2007 at 17:58 |
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You call it energy, I call it more pure and direct emotion as an important element of the neo-prog, more close to the roots of rock and roll.
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salmacis
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Posted: April 20 2007 at 18:08 |
I tend to prefer the work the neo prog bands did outside of the 80s, save Marillion, who imho generally avoid the trappings of the era in a way that, say, Pallas' 'The Sentinel' does not which is filled to the brim with dated syn drums, period synth sounds and a weak production (which it seems was very much an eleventh hour mix, too), though even that has some great moments.
That's not to say Marillion have not done good work post-Fish, I think 'Season's End' is a great album, 'Brave' took some work but I now rate that highly, whilst 'Afraid Of Sunlight' is probably my favourite of the post-Fish batch. 'Marbles' is a cracker, as well.
Over the past few years, bands like Pallas, IQ and Pendragon have done some of their best work- check out Pallas' 'The Cross And The Crucible' and 'The Dreams Of Men', they sound like a different band as they are mature in a way that 'The Sentinel' was occasionally naive, imho.
Also, IQ get better and better- 'Dark Matter' and 'Ever' get as many airings from me as the old 70s classics.
Pendragon at times I struggle with because sometimes, they epitomise what the genre is decried for in terms of being derivative. I enjoy them, but they sometimes go too far- for example, their album 'The Window Of Life' has one song which is basically 'Shine On You Crazy Diamond', with some of Gilmour's guitar phrases copied note for note! Camel are another constant comparison for me with them. However, 'The Masquerade Overture' is an all time favourite, and 'Believe' saw them adding some more rock and folk to their brew, which I found far more satisfying.
I have Twelfth Night's 'Live At The Target' and that struck me as being quite 'space rock' in terms of sound, I was vaguely reminded of Steve Hillage or even a rockier Tangerine Dream, but it's not especially derivative. I haven't heard 'Fact and Fiction' as yet though.
It is always good to read Certif1ed's positive posts on the genre as far too often this sub genre gets unfairly maligned.
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Certif1ed
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Posted: April 20 2007 at 18:11 |
 erik neuteboom wrote:
You call it energy, I call it more pure and direct emotion as an important element of the neo-prog, more close to the roots of rock and roll. |
That too - I think that's something different; it's obviously there, but hard to quantify except with regard to the lyrics - Fish's being the most powerful to me, and Geoff Mann a close second.
Can you think of any way of explaining how the emotions are conveyed more directly in Neo-Prog - or better still, examples (with, perhaps, a couple of YouTube links)?
I feel safer going into technical matters than emotional ones... you've probably noticed
(please note: I was only teasing about Pallas - I've only heard The Sentinel, and last saw them live in 1982 - so take my comments with a grain or two of salt! I did buy "Shock Treatment" - but only because I liked the cover)
Edited by Certif1ed - April 20 2007 at 18:14
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erik neuteboom
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Posted: April 20 2007 at 18:32 |
I still remember very vividly that I had seen a concert by the Geoff Mann Band in Holland, after the show we had a great chat with the late Geoff Mann. We were talking about his inspiration ... it turned out to be the Margaret Thatcher politics  : and if you check out the excellent Twelfth Night album Fact And Fiction, I have never heard such an emotional neo-prog album about anger, love, hate, hope, etc., often triggered by the arrogant, very capitalistic dictatorship by Thatcher & Co. ... but for Geoff Mann it was a huge source of inspiration and I am still carried away by Fact And Fiction
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dojonane
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Posted: April 20 2007 at 19:43 |
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The Watch have a less cozy production style than Genesis? I'd have to say that the Watch's production is about as clear and unfettered (as in not suffering from early 70s analog low budget a la Genesis nor restrained by 80s pointless dalliances) the sound is about as clear and pure as they come... Also, the Watch really don't deserve to be included in this discussion. Sure they are new but no more neo than a band like anglagard. They are firmly set in the ways of the 70s and very rarely owe anything to 90s shmaltzy preachy productions also classified with some of the other sympho-revival groups. To me, they are one of the only truly vintage sounding prog groups in sound and theory today, but hey I might be biased as I'm the artist whose illustrated their latest effort primitive.
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Walker
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Posted: April 20 2007 at 21:51 |
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I have been thinking about this very issue lately, so your post is very timely. I grew up in the 70's listening to Yes, ELP, Tull, Zeppelin, etc. I was there in the 80;s when Marillion issued their first. The term "Neo-Prog" to me is a very loose definition that includes almost all prog bands that got their start in the 80's or later. It seems almost randomly assigned to me. For example: in this site Pendragon is listed as Neo, but Glass Hammer is Sympho. To me these bands sound so close to being the same style that I fail to see the distinction. I find myself listening to so-called Neo bands MUCH more than the classics nowadays. After all I've heard the classics so many time that I can hear them note for note in my head without even powering up the stereo. Anyway, the bottom line for me is that there are plenty of bands still making great prog no matter what label you apply to it,
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Atomic_Rooster
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Posted: April 20 2007 at 22:21 |
stonebeard wrote:
in the way Hammill is unique, but without sounding like Hammill or having the choppy delivery
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AHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!    But anyways... Neo-prog is Genesis-influenced, but doesn't sound like them necessarily; actually sounds more like Phil Collins era Genesis more ( A Trick of the Tail and Wind and Wuthering) Its very much like melodic prog with more standard pop music structures and musical architecturing. or alternatively pop music with prog sensibilities. Think Crime of the Century era Supertramp, with both less prog structuring and less commercial appeal, if thats possible.
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Soul Dreamer
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Posted: April 20 2007 at 22:36 |
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What I'm missing in this whole discussion is the position of Arena, Clepsydra, Satellite, Saens, and a number of other bands. I think by focussing neo prog too much on only Marillion and IQ you throw away the child with the bathwater (I'm not shure this is a valid expression in English, it is in Dutch...). Neo prog has so much diversity that it can't be captured by only referring to Marillion or IQ... What distinguishes neo prog from other contemporary genres is IMO the ultimate drive for making melodically sound music as opposed to experimentalism or jazz/rhythmical music. The way that is reached, is different for different bands.
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To be the one who seeks so I may find .. (Metallica)
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Walker
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Posted: April 20 2007 at 23:10 |
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^ my point exactly........ Neo encompasses so many different sounding artists that the genre name is next to useles in trying to figure out what an artist sounds like. Another reviewer wrote that neo is "pop music with prog sensabilities". I TOTALLY disagree with this assessment. There are some bands that resemble that, but many, many others who don't.
Edited by Walker - April 20 2007 at 23:17
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FruMp
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Posted: April 21 2007 at 00:26 |
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To me neo prog is 90's rock + prog
I don't really like it too much it always seems too slick and reminds me of dream theatre too much.
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stonebeard
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Posted: April 21 2007 at 00:32 |
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stonebeard
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Posted: April 21 2007 at 00:39 |
dojonane wrote:
The Watch have a less cozy production style than Genesis? I'd have to say that the Watch's production is about as clear and unfettered (as in not suffering from early 70s analog low budget a la Genesis nor restrained by 80s pointless dalliances) the sound is about as clear and pure as they come... |
Yeah, hence "cozy." I think that describes it well. Whereas Lamb captures the close, personal, and cozy (I like that word, like the feeling you get with the crackle and pop of a classic vinyl recod), Vacuum (my only Watch album) is crisp, clear, and musically a bit more dissonant than Genesis (more reminiscent of "The Knife" than say "Cinema Show."
dojonane wrote:
Also, the Watch really don't deserve to be included in this discussion. Sure they are new but no more neo than a band like anglagard. |
I think they are quite a bit more Neo than Anglagard. I use "Neo" to describe the sonic associations such as instrumentation and overall feeling rather than time period or relevance or anything similar. Neo has always a term describing more of a sound than an era.
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Bottom Line on Neo-Prog?
