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What's the shortest length for an "Epic"?
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zwordser View Drop Down
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    Posted: April 24 2021 at 16:11
I've started producing some videos for my top Epic tracks; eventually I intend to post them online, (maybe even here), but I'm still sort of in the "practice" mode, having just completed the first (with some good epics outside my top 50).  I've decided to work on two series: one for longer and one for shorter Epics, with the dividing line for length at about 12 minutes.

I'm pretty happy with the 12m divider mark --the thing I haven't quite decided on is: how long should a track be before it is considered "Epic"?  I'm kind of thinking somewhere between the 7-8 minute mark, but I thought I'd throw the question out there and see what other Prog-heads think.

That said/asked, I should mention there are other factors I've thought about besides length. For example, some ~6-8 minute songs/tracks just seem to me like long songs that don't have an "epic" quality while other seem more epic-ish (often to do with the subject, arrangement, instrumentation, etc.).
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SteveG View Drop Down
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There's more to an epic than just lenth. Does the song have a sense of high drama both musically and lyrically? Are there dramatic changes in time signitures and tempos. Are there extended instrumental music passages in the song? If you have some of these traits than a 7-8 minute song is just fine.

Edited by SteveG - April 24 2021 at 16:19
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10 minutes maybe? Not sure. For me personally I would say 15 minutes since I consider "awaken" to be an epic but not "heart of the sunrise" or "starship trooper." 
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

There's more to an epic than just lenth. Does the song have a sense of high drama both musically and lyrically? Are there dramatic changes in time signitures and tempos. Are there extended instrumental music passages in the song? If you have some of these traits than a 7-8 minute song is just fine.


True enough about other factors, though length, for me, will be the biggest factor. 

This may be another, (though related) topic, but I'm not quite sure that "extended instrumental" passages necessarily make a track "epic".  In fact I was going to dis-include anything that was what you might call an "extended jam", though the only track for my purposes that is really on the fence here is Zappa's "Gumbo Variations"-- I really love it, and its superb instrumentation, but it has more of a jam quality, and I'm not sure I'd call it "epic".  I guess it depends on how you define the word.


Edited by zwordser - April 24 2021 at 16:36
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http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=123509&PN=5
No idea,  just posting this past link on same topic from July 2020....but 15 minutes gets mentioned often.


Edited by dr wu23 - April 24 2021 at 16:45
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For me an epic song tends to be packed with emotion, and takes you on a journey, such as (love them or hate them) Bohemian Rhapsody (6 mins), Stairway to Heaven (8 mins), or American Pie (8.5 mins), to quote three very familiar examples.

it's not all about length.
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

There's more to an epic than just lenth. Does the song have a sense of high drama both musically and lyrically? Are there dramatic changes in time signitures and tempos. Are there extended instrumental music passages in the song? If you have some of these traits than a 7-8 minute song is just fine.

Based on your definition, I give you rock's shortest epic at 2:46....
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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Good shout!
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Manuel View Drop Down
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Hard to say. Epics for me are more about the content than their length. I would probably say 8 minutes, but is not something carved in stone either.
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zwordser View Drop Down
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Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=123509&PN=5
No idea,  just posting this past link on same topic from July 2020....but 15 minutes gets mentioned often.


Well, not quite the same topic, but closely related.

Right, 15 minutes was mentioned there a couple times, along with other shorter lengths. But I've already rejected 15 minutes as a "shorter" epic.  To me, shorter ones tend to cluster around 10 minutes.



Edited by zwordser - April 24 2021 at 17:06
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zwordser View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Manuel Manuel wrote:

Hard to say. Epics for me are more about the content than their length. I would probably say 8 minutes, but is not something carved in stone either.


Well, there lies the real issue.
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The Dark Elf View Drop Down
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Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=123509&PN=5
No idea,  just posting this past link on same topic from July 2020....but 15 minutes gets mentioned often.

I still believe my definition of "epic" from the previous thread is correct:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Ten minutes, a chord change, and a few quotes from Greek mythology sung by a guy in a funny outfit.
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

There's more to an epic than just lenth. Does the song have a sense of high drama both musically and lyrically? Are there dramatic changes in time signitures and tempos. Are there extended instrumental music passages in the song? If you have some of these traits than a 7-8 minute song is just fine.


Based on your definition, I give you rock's shortest epic at 2:46....


There are many short rock epics Greg, but I think the OP was inquiring about prog epics. Use your endless wit and find me a prog epic under 3 minutes.

Edited by SteveG - April 24 2021 at 17:28
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Heart of the Matter View Drop Down
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Are suites and epics the same thing? I can surely think of suites, like James Taylor's Suite For 20G, that are truly brief. They use to feature a more complex structure than the usual song form, but one can still reply that an epic needs something more, it needs to build momentum by the minute leading to a climax. Whatever its minimal lenght may be, it needs not to block such a development, I guess.
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

There are many short rock epics Greg, but I think the OP was inquiring about prog epics. Use your endless wit and find me a prog epic under 3 minutes.

Hmmm...how about this at 2:46?



I could provide a complete protest song at 31 seconds...
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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Can't do it, huh? I thought not but it's a good try.
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8 to 10 minBig smile
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A Crimson Mellotron View Drop Down
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Originally posted by twosteves twosteves wrote:

8 to 10 minBig smile
YES. Well, maybe 7 to 10 for me.
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I'd argue length is honestly secondary. One of my favorite qualities of YES is they make a 20+ min song feel like 5 mins. Some bands are the opposite.

If we're looking at it in terms of an arguable time length for the sake of thread conversation, 10+ mins seems fair.

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I definitely don’t think it is length (or, at least, length alone) that defines an epic.

If it is length, then even then it depends on the genre, or band, and what is the average length of a song. So it’s still impossible to declare an arbitrary length the point at which a song becomes an epic. If a band normally writes songs that last three to five minutes, then what is an epic for them would be different from a band that normally writes songs that last ten to twelve minutes. And a grind core band that normally writes songs that last from 30 to 90 seconds probably considers a two minute song an epic! 😜
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