Fusion.... rock, or jazz?

It's a little bit of both... but as it has already been stated here, it doesn't really matter what gets included in the archives, as long as it can grab your attention as a listener.

So if this thread is just an excuse to include people like Scott Henderson or Frank Gambale then feel free to do it, I love jazz-rock (I prefer this term to fusion, as you can also apply the latter term to mixtures of jazz and hip-hop, jazz and funk etc.) 

JrKASperov wrote: I voted Jazz because I can hear the jazz influence, but I don't honestly hear the rock influence.

Hmm... try listening to Jack DeJohnette's work on 'Bitches Brew' his drumming sounds very rock to me, and the rest of the musicians play in more of a rock-like manner, too.

I think Fusion is a sub of both.  Caravan certainly displays the fusion tendecies of later bands and people certainly refer to them as Progressive Rock.  Return to Forever are certainly grounded in jazz but you cannot deny theat they are reaching over to grab rock elements into their music.  Either way it works and either way it belongs here. 

Now in a debate over muscians is it fair to lump Al Dimeola and Steve Howe together and I say yes you can.  But only in this way, you can compare their relevant contributions and style within their own bands and project it to what would this sound like with out them.  In other words who would be more valuable to their own bands.  This is a far more relevant way to compare styles without lumping in technique and virtuosity.  Certainly the jazz player will be faster and better at improv but would suffer without  a slower "tasty" sound that is generated by rock orientated musicians.  But what would each group sound like if they removed each player. 

 Ok so I am really bored and I needed something to think about.

Easy Livin wrote: Good thread Sweetnighter, certainly provoked some interesting discussion. Of the various sub-genres on the site, fusion is generally my least favourite, which is probably why I perceive it to sit better with Jazz than Rock.

May I humbly suggest EL, you've become to used to running with the term jazz fusion, which nowadays is majoritively about non-rock based jazz . For instance listen to:

Jan Garbarek's Ragas & Sagas, it is jazz fusion but jazz fused with Pakistani folk music. Jonas Hellborg is even a better case for confusing the term 'jazz fusion', by being well known for crossing many music boundaries. He can be heard doing Indo jazz fusion on Icon, jazz-Arabic on Aram Of Two Rivers, jazz rock on Time Is the Enemy and on the  recently issued remixed and essential Octave Of The Holy Innocents, thrash metal with The Shining Path (with other jazz musicians), free jazz/avante improv on Anders Johasson's Red Shift, experimental jazz on several 80's releases.

Nearly all sub-divisions of prog rock are 'fusions' of something with rock and often with the amps cranked up to 11.

Syzygy wrote: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Couldn't have put it better myself Mr. Heath. Don't forget the Indo-Jazz Fusion albums of the late 60s (Quintessence? Pah!) by the mighty Joe Harriott/Roy Haynes double quintet. Jazz Islamic style can also be heard on Anouar Brahem's wonderful ECM albums - Astrakhan Cafe is a good place to start. Dhafer Yousseff's Digital prophecy and Electric Sufi albums are also interesting examples of Islamic musical traditions colliding with jazz and contemporary elecronica.

My earliest reference point to jazz fusion (NB. without the rock component) was the Joe Harriott/John Mayer collaboration which they called Indo Jazz Fusions  in 1965/6. There is a twoferone CD of their two albums released in the mid 60's, which will demonstrate rock-free jazz fusion. So I'm not suggesting they should become part of the archives. Equally John Mclaughlin and Shakti are indo jazz fusion, but not jazz rock (so should not be here).

BTW have only just reminded myself of Quintessence's music (found the Repertoise CD reissue 3 weeks ago in a local store) - not time travelled very well but rock jazz and Indian influences fused into a sort of prog.

Dick Heath wrote: Easy Livin wrote: Good thread Sweetnighter, certainly provoked some interesting discussion. Of the various sub-genres on the site, fusion is generally my least favourite, which is probably why I perceive it to sit better with Jazz than Rock.   May I humbly suggest EL, you've become to used to running with the term jazz fusion, which nowadays is majoritively about non-rock based jazz . For instance listen to: Jan Garbarek's Ragas & Sagas, it is jazz fusion but jazz fused with Pakistani folk music. Jonas Hellborg is even a better case for confusing the term 'jazz fusion', by being well known for crossing many music boundaries. He can be heard doing Indo jazz fusion on Icon, jazz-Arabic on Aram Of Two Rivers, jazz rock on Time Is the Enemy and on the  recently issued remixed and essential Octave Of The Holy Innocents, thrash metal with The Shining Path (with other jazz musicians), free jazz/avante improv on Anders Johasson's Red Shift, experimental jazz on several 80's releases. Nearly all sub-divisions of prog rock are 'fusions' of something with rock and often with the amps cranked up to 11.

It's a fair point Dick, when I speak of fusion, I am referring specifically to fusion as it is identified as a sub-genre of this site. There is of course a difference between that genre, and the more general act of fusing different styles.

I guess it's a bit like the term progressive rock though, which some interpret as meaning music which constantly progresses. I would suggest that for many of us here, the scope for prog to progress is actually quite limited,...... or is it?

Zero the hero wrote: JrKASperov wrote: I voted Jazz because I can hear the jazz influence, but I don't honestly hear the rock influence. I'm a gong fan & i can say that most of the material is without a doubt jazz based as i could probably say for the majority of the early bands.

Hello

That is very true..I listern to very early ELP & Colosseum & can here the Jazz infuence there.

Thank you