non prog metal vote

No Motorhead or Black Sabbath?

I guess it doesn't matter, because Metallica are/were the ultimate Heavy Metal band. Before them, Motorhead and Sabbath moulded the genre. Metallica kicked the genre's ass.

Certif1ed wrote: No Motorhead or Black Sabbath? I guess it doesn't matter, because Metallica are/were the ultimate Heavy Metal band. Before them, Motorhead and Sabbath moulded the genre. Metallica kicked the genre's ass.

...in your very humble opinion.........
I think,Metal said all it had to say by 1980.After that it was all about degrees of loudness and crassness! (IMVHO)

I couldn't disagree more - as a single example, Number of the Beast (1982) was fantastically melodic and very polished.

Your opinion Cert! Fantastically melodic???? Iron maiden are extremely melodic?

OK, "fantastically" is my opinion. Iron Maiden have written some very melodic songs, and Number of the Beast is richest in them. That's not my opinion - the melody writing is very strong.

Kill 'Em All (1983) was very rough, production-wise, but blew old-school metal into the dark ages - it's an incredible album full of fresh, new energy, and I cannot think of an album before it with that kind of buzz (except, maybe Metal Church's debut). Metal Militia and Whiplash are stunning examples of what the band had done to revitalise metal.

Your opinion....

No.

Ride the Lightning (1984) added melody and a slick production to Metallica's energy - which intensified in places (Fight Fire with Fire, Trapped Under Ice), whilst being reigned back in others (Fade to Black, For Whom the Bell Tolls).Opinion

No. There IS melody and slicker production on this album. The energy IS intensifed on the tracks I mentioned, and reigned back where I said it was - where's the opinion in that? Have you heard the album?

Master of Puppets (1986) really showed the world a trick or two - this is where prog metal began, IMNSHO. Battery is a devastating assault on the ears, whilst maintaining a powerful integrity. The title track is practically prog rock, with the numerous time-changes and mega-riffathon worthy of Rush, I would suggest. Then there's Sanitarium, plagirised by nearly every so-called prog metal band on the planet, it seems; Orion, showcasing their melodic sensibilities, and Damage Inc., proving that they were still masters of thrash.Opinion!!

Not at all.

What album before "Master of Puppets" did any of the stuff I mentioned?

...And Justice for All IS the 1st prog metal album. 'nuff said. It's awesome.That "O" word again-unless I accept that your opinion is more worthy than mine,I dont really understand what you are taking me to task for?

Nope.

I'm simply disagreeing with the points you made - this is a discussion forum where such things happen.

So I'll give you something to argue about:I think "2112" is the first prog metal album and that was 1976...The title track is guitar based,no real use of keyboards but "symphonic" in the broadest sense of the word....an intro that introduces elements of the main themes,sections that are self-contained but echo the intro's  motif and a finale,presenting a story from start to finish..oh and top-notch ensemble playing.

It's a different kind of prog metal - not prog metal as it is known today. To substantiate my claims, you can hear "...And Justice for All" riffs all over "Images and Words" by Dream Theater. Metallica invented a whole new style. So did Rush. Fewer prog metal bands have taken on Rush's style - far more have followed Metallica's lead.

Metallica (the Black album) is toned down, but with that massive production that sparked the whole nu-metal thing, and revolutionised metal for the 1990s.

Metallica were the pioneers - the trailblazers of new (not "nu") metal - but they had plenty of challengers;

Slayer, despite the dreadful production on their 1st two albums, kept the faith and produced the ultimate thrash album that has remained a benchmark ever since;

the "ultimate" in your opinion or general concensus?

You'll probably find that it is a general consensus too, but the facts speak for themselves, if you'd actually listened to the album.

Reign in Blood is the ultimate in breakneck speed, brutal riffs, screaming vocals and dive-bombing guitars. South of Heaven was much heavier, thanks to even better production, and is a classic in its own right - out-Sabbathing Sabbath, but remains in the shadow of Reign in Blood.
Your use of absolutes suggests that this view is incontravertible.

OK, tell me why I'm wrong - don't just keep telling me that it's my opinion, because that simply leaves it at the point where it's your opinion that it's my opinion, and your opinion seems to be founded on guesswork, while mine is founded on an appreciation of the music.

Other bands that shouldn't be overlooked include the infamous Napalm Death, who took speed metal to its natural conclusion - everything since has just been gravy really. Also worth a mention as pioneers of the darker genre are Helloween, for their early "Maiden on speed" sound, Death, for the notorious and now omnipresent death grunts, Celtic Frost for their daring experimentation, Megadeth, Voivod and Kreator.

All these bands experimented and took their music to new levels - this was a time when creating new music was a good thing again; it was almost like being back in the 1970s to hear all this new stuff being created.

Sabbath (Ozzy era and Dio era),Thin Lizzy,,UFO,Rainbow (Dio era),Scorpions (first 5 or 6 albums were very good) early Van Halen could all be very heavy but tuneful with it.Motorhead (in my experience) where, and should have remained, unique and enjoyable for that fact.Lemmy's vocals were at odds with the bands above and seem to have spawned all these "barking" metal vocalists that are so prevalent now.If I was 10 years younger I would have probably got into Maiden, and later,Metallica but they always seemed empty,hackneyed and soulless to me.

Aha-"to me" -opinion-Ie they did nothing for me!!!

I really don't understand that

What you dont understand why I have that opinion? It is a matter of taste-I didnt say they were rubbish or anything......

If my words are too cryptic, I mean that I don't understand why anyone would find their music empty or soulless when it's packed full of so much energy and aggression - takes a soul to have aggression.

As for hackneyed, that's bollocks - by using the word "hackneyed" - and also the word "empty", you ARE saying that you think they are rubbish. You're entitled to not like them, but I'm equally entitled to suggest reasons why they are not as bad as you say they are.

The riffs are reasonably complex, the structure of the songs is immaculate rock-song structure with extended bridges and codas (much like Rush), and the riffs and leads are diamond-sharp - there's absolutely no bluff, unlike in most of the old school rock bands where they thought they could get away with it.

 - Metallica's first 3 albums are crammed full of the passion and hunger that up and coming bands should show - and then some. From the opening of Kill 'Em All - the heavy guitars being gradually faded UP in the mix, through the sheer exuberance of The Four Horsemen,  the gleeful power-riffing of Seek and Destroy and the insanity of Whiplash - this is an album full of a new kind of spirit, but based in the rifferama of Black Sabbath (almost constant use of tritones) and Motorhead.

You are a big-time Metallica fan,I am not......

No sh*t, Sherlock

 Hetfield's voice is atypical of the speed/thrash genre too - it's almost a tuneful "bark"!

But a bark nonetheless.

Frankly, after Metallica entered the scene, I felt that the old school rock bands (Rainbow, UFO, Lizzy, etc.) all sounded a bit tired, lame and thin. Fortunately I got over that, and can enjoy all these bands - and some of the newer crowd, like Cradle of Filth, Killswitch Engage, System of a Down and Bathory. I still don't like Dream Theater though

So we are agreeing or disagreeing?

Discussing.

Same goes for Slayer, although some of the other bands early material sounded a bit nervous, despite the heavy pretensions. Sacred Reich are another good band of the time - they always sounded like they enjoyed what they did.