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Topic ClosedMeshuggah on prog archives???

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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2005 at 13:51
Originally posted by The Miracle The Miracle wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

No offense, but only ignorant people confuse Trash with Thrash.

BTW: Meshuggah compare to Pantera as Dream Theater compare to Metallica ( in terms of complexity).

Pardon my ignorance, but what is the difference?

"Trash Metal" doesn't exist as a genre. It is just misspelled. Thrash Metal it is, and Thrash means this:

  • give a thrashing to; beat hard
  • convulse: move or stir about violently; "The feverish patient thrashed around in his bed"
  • slam dance: dance the slam dance
  • beat so fast that (the heart's) output starts dropping until (it) does not manage to pump out blood at all
  • move data into and out of core rather than performing useful computation; "The system is thrashing again!"
  • beat the seeds out of a grain
  • a swimming kick used while treading water
  • bat: beat thoroughly in a competition or fight; "We licked the other team on Sunday!"
    www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn2.1
  •  

    It doesn't have anything to do with garbage.

    Thrash Metal is just a label for Metal bands that play agressively and use complex riffs. If you look at their performance, it looks like they're constantly "thrashing" their instruments.

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    MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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    Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2005 at 13:52
    Originally posted by Arsillus Arsillus wrote:

    Meshuggah shouldn't be on here. Just because a band is complex doesn't mean they are "prog" or "prog-metal."

    Well, too bad for you ... they're more than just complex.

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    Arsillus View Drop Down
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    Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2005 at 13:58
    Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

    Originally posted by Arsillus Arsillus wrote:

    Meshuggah shouldn't be on here. Just because a band is complex doesn't mean they are "prog" or "prog-metal."

    Well, too bad for you ... they're more than just complex.

    How so?

    Please enlighten me!

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    GoldenSpiral View Drop Down
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    Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2005 at 14:09

    It looks like it may be time for the collaborators to really think about what this site should be.  Should it be an all-encompassing progressive music site?  Or should it be restriced to groups that are specifically of the Prog Rock genre? 

    It's a tough debate that seems to be going on in random places throughout the forums.  One argument is that the inclusion of any progressive band, such as Meshuggah, can lead to the unnecessary addition of bands that are related to other bands that are only loosely related to prog rock ("well, so and so should be on the site because they sort of sound like such and such, and such and such sort of sound like this other band who is DEFINITELY prog...). 

    However, the inclusion of a more diverse array of progressive bands leads to the inclusion of more people on the site and can promote a growing prog rock community.  People often groan in the forums about how prog isnt popular anymore.  Well, maybe it is, just in a different form, and if you open up your eyes a bit, you can find some really great things.  Also, fans of these 'outsider' prog bands may find this site, and their eyes can be opened to more 'traditional' prog.

     

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    MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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    Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2005 at 14:59
    Originally posted by Arsillus Arsillus wrote:

    Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

    Originally posted by Arsillus Arsillus wrote:

    Meshuggah shouldn't be on here. Just because a band is complex doesn't mean they are "prog" or "prog-metal."

    Well, too bad for you ... they're more than just complex.

    How so?

    Please enlighten me!

    Just listen to their new records (the ones I mentioned above). "More than complex" is of course a subjective attribute, what seems like "more" to me may appear to be just silly to you ... but maybe not.

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    glass house View Drop Down
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    Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2005 at 17:15
      To Mike : imo Catch 33 is a very poor album.  Destroy, Erase, Improve however is one of the more innovative metal albums ever.
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    Rune3000 View Drop Down
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    Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2005 at 17:34

    Many people can't hear the King Crimson complexity in Tools sound, but they're still Prog

     

    Many can't spot the Prog i Mars Volta, but they're still Prog

     

    Many can't hear the difference between Trash and complex Prog, but it's still Prog!

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    MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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    Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2005 at 18:25

    Originally posted by glass house glass house wrote:

      To Mike : imo Catch 33 is a very poor album.  Destroy, Erase, Improve however is one of the more innovative metal albums ever.

    Define poor.

    It is more daring, and completely different. I'd prefer Catch 33 over Nothing, and Destroy Erase Improve over Chaosphere. But that's only me ...

    What's bad about Catch 33?



    Edited by MikeEnRegalia
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    MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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    Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2005 at 18:27
    Originally posted by Rune3000 Rune3000 wrote:

    Many people can't hear the King Crimson complexity in Tools sound, but they're still Prog

     

    Many can't spot the Prog i Mars Volta, but they're still Prog

     

    Many can't hear the difference between Trash and complex Prog, but it's still Prog!

    What's Trash?

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    Arsillus View Drop Down
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    Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2005 at 18:32
    Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

    Originally posted by Arsillus Arsillus wrote:

    Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

    Originally posted by Arsillus Arsillus wrote:

    Meshuggah shouldn't be on here. Just because a band is complex doesn't mean they are "prog" or "prog-metal."

    Well, too bad for you ... they're more than just complex.

    How so?

    Please enlighten me!

    Just listen to their new records (the ones I mentioned above). "More than complex" is of course a subjective attribute, what seems like "more" to me may appear to be just silly to you ... but maybe not.

    Yeah, I guess I kinda see what you mean.

    But you kinda threw me off with "more than complex."

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    MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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    Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2005 at 18:36
    Originally posted by Arsillus Arsillus wrote:

    Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

    Just listen to their new records (the ones I mentioned above). "More than complex" is of course a subjective attribute, what seems like "more" to me may appear to be just silly to you ... but maybe not.

    Yeah, I guess I kinda see what you mean.

    But you kinda threw me off with "more than complex."

    I just meant that they don't just use odd signatures. They have complex lyrics, recurring themes in the songs, and - and that's again subjective - are quite consistent on their albums and not really predictable.

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    coffeeintheface View Drop Down
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    Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2005 at 21:47
    goddammit stop saying trash, its THRASH for god's sake!!!!!!
    OBQM: www.soundcloud.com/onebigquestionmark (solo project)
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    Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2005 at 02:29

        To Mike, now we're talking personal preferences, that is always highly debatteble.

    Catch 33 doesn't do anything for me. It is one mush of sound. Erase was although chaotic at times more clear.  But mainly it is a feeling. And that sometimes is difficult to explain or to write down.

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    Bryan View Drop Down
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    Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 02 2005 at 22:08
    I love Meshuggah, and I think their more recent works could be considered prog, but I wouldn't have added them to the archives.
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    Certif1ed View Drop Down
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    Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2005 at 17:19

    Meshuggah are NOT prog - not by several long chalks and a blackboard.

    Progressive in the metal genre maybe - but Led Zeppelin were progressive in the rock genre, and I would not expect to see Led Zep in the archives.

    There are too few elements in Meshuggah's music (on Catch 33, at least) to warrant the label Prog Rock or even Prog Metal. Prog is FAR more than a few time signature changes and a minimalist approach to heavy metal riff-writing. And there's NOTHING progressive about the death grunt vocals either - they were quite funny 20 years ago, but very tired now.

    It's certainly put me off exploring their back catalogue - the execution is not of a particularly high level (remember, we are comparing them to real prog rock, not their metal peers), and Metallica's first 4 albums are many factors of progginess more progressive.

    Still, the admins can make the choices they want to, and I'm not the first to state that I think they got it wrong this time.

     

    I put the first review in, and it sums the album up well, I think - does anyone disgree with my assessment? Which comments particularly?

     

    /edit: Useful - didn't you rate it as a masterpiece of prog? How can you reconcile that with the position you're taking here?



    Edited by Certif1ed
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    Third Eye View Drop Down
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    Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2005 at 17:39
    What's so wrong with Meshuggah's presence when nobody finds it strange that we have Asia, GTR or Blackmore's Night here?
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    goose View Drop Down
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    Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2005 at 17:41
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    Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2005 at 18:08
    Anyone who equates Meshuggah's vocals with "death grunts" knows little about metal vocals in general.
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    Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2005 at 22:06
    We NEED some meshuggah mp3's posted !!!
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    Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2005 at 22:10
    Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

    Meshuggah are NOT prog - not by several long chalks and a blackboard.

    Progressive in the metal genre maybe - but Led Zeppelin were progressive in the rock genre, and I would not expect to see Led Zep in the archives.

    There are too few elements in Meshuggah's music (on Catch 33, at least) to warrant the label Prog Rock or even Prog Metal. Prog is FAR more than a few time signature changes and a minimalist approach to heavy metal riff-writing. And there's NOTHING progressive about the death grunt vocals either - they were quite funny 20 years ago, but very tired now.

    It's certainly put me off exploring their back catalogue - the execution is not of a particularly high level (remember, we are comparing them to real prog rock, not their metal peers), and Metallica's first 4 albums are many factors of progginess more progressive.

    Still, the admins can make the choices they want to, and I'm not the first to state that I think they got it wrong this time.

     

    I put the first review in, and it sums the album up well, I think - does anyone disgree with my assessment? Which comments particularly?

     

    /edit: Useful - didn't you rate it as a masterpiece of prog? How can you reconcile that with the position you're taking here?



    I consider Catch 33 a prog album (as well as I), but that doesn't mean I consider them a prog band.

    As for comments I may or may not agree with in your review, I don't "disagree" with anything you said, as such.  Meshuggah is the kind of band you'll either love or hate, and you're evidently on the latter side.  I still don't see how it isn't progressive though... maybe if it were all one track you'd be more willing to acknowledge it as prog?

    Also, their vocals have nothing to do with death grunting.


    Edited by Useful_Idiot
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