Pat Metheny... Prog?

I was listening to a Pat Metheny record tonight, live record Travels, and I got to wondering how Metheny is perceived in the rock world. Also he's always categorized as a jazz guitarist, his music has always walked along that border between jazz and rock, often swaying more towards jazz, and other times more towards rock. His work with Lyle Mays has produced some fantastic music. Owning five or six Metheny albums, I'm disappointed in his lack of musical development over the years, but he's still done some amazing work. From Bright Size Life, his 1976 release with bass virtuoso Jaco Pastorius to his latest release, Speaking of Now, with his five-man group, I feel that although the content and stylistic elements have changed, the actual sounds that Metheny and his band members employ haven't changed that much, ever. Lyle sticks to the same keysounds and Metheny is attached to the effects he is attached to. Granted his group now has a trumpeter, I still would expect a little more textural change than has been seen.

Now, question I prompted, and of course the favorite progarchives question, "is X prog?" Well, in many ways he is, and in many ways he isn't. For one, he doesn't fully embrace the "rock sound" in the way that other Jazz-Rock groups such as the Mahavishnu Orchestra or Return to Forever did, but thats not to say that he isn't a rock musician. He employs distortion and a multitude of effects. I think his music is progressive more in its length and structure. "The Epic" from American Garage and "As Falls Wichita, So Falls Wichita Falls" would in many minds qualify as prog epics. Although half of the time these pieces are more electric jazz than jazz-rock, there are certainly many progressive elements to the music... unusual time signatures, mood and tempo variations, etc. Maybe some would disqualify him as prog because of his outspoken musical opinions, but then again some would point to that and say, "oh, well he has a big ego and a guitar, must be prog." Others might point to his disposition towards improvisational complexity over compositional complexity and say "thats definitely jazz, not prog," while others may point that out and say that his improvisational ability and his musical virtuosity is an element that leads to his music being prog. Obviously no one single attribute there mentioned defines a musician as prog, but together, one could certainly build a strong case for Metheny being a prog musician.

BTW, he's just released a new album that I read some reviews of in Downbeat magazine. Its 68 mins long, one epic piece called The Way Up, divided into a 5 minute intro, and then 25 min movement, 20 min movement, and 15 min movement. Is that prog?

way off, though one of his releases Song X has a
song on it that has a climax in it that sounds like it
came off of Gates of Delirium. A feat rarely achieved
and a better example of progressive music than alot
of jazz rock fusion artist ever made. I just have a hard
time listening to all the individual soloing before they
hit it.

not your typical PM release

Edited by DallasBryan

Oh come on! First off, if you haven't picked up any Metheny albums, do it. Secondly, what does BAFJG mean?

DallasBryan, what album is it that you're thinking of, do you know?

No bloody way. Absolutely not! Great guitarist but about as prog as...as...something that's not prog at all.

DallasBryan wrote: Pat Metheny Song X(its an album, nothing like anything else from him) with Ornette Coleman Jack DeJohnette Charlie Haden Forgot what the style is but Ornette was the master. Everybody solos extremely fast in different directions, like they are all on different songs. Then when they all hit the same stride, everyones at full speed and its on. Really good stuff for avant garde jazz heads. But you gotta really concentrate and listen critically to each musician and hear what they are doing. Its the musicians music. DeJohnette and Haden are legends in modern abstract jazz circles.

 

'Song X' along with 'Zero Tolerance For Silence' are excellent if somewhat difficult listening. It's amazing that these albums are produced by the same man that made tracks like 'The Bat Pt 1 & 2' or 'Across The Heartland'. 

A wonderful guitarist/composer/improviser.

 

Edited by sigod

Song X is too experimental for me. The title track has some melodic elements, but overall..it's just an experiment that I doubt I'd ever go for. OTOH, a lot of his stuff is highly melodic. My fav being First Circle, particularly the 2 tracks Yolanda, You Learn and the title track. In some ways it reminds me of Genesis. The vocal harmonies from Pedro Aznar on those numbers are incredible.

is he Prog?..not exactly, is he Jazz?..a form maybe...he's really just diverse. Jazz-Rock would be my best description, but not like Mahavishnu Orchestra or Return to Forever exactly. He's almost like Jazz-Rock-World Music, or World/Ethnic Fusion. I love how he uses that synclaviar-synth guitar that sounds like a trumpet.

I am likely finally going to see him live next month

Kyle

 

Sweetnighter wrote: Oh come on! First off, if you haven't picked up any Metheny albums, do it. Secondly, what does BAFJG mean? DallasBryan, what album is it that you're thinking of, do you know?

Why make that assumption? I have tons of Metheny albums, have been a fan since the 70s, and have seen him live twice.

But A Fantastic Jazz Guitarist! (See the poll.)

He belongs on a jazz site, not a prog rock one.  If it was up to me (but it's not, thank goodness!), no jazz fusion or metal would be here, because this is the sort of thing it leads to.

I really like Metheny, but if he is prog, are all of the other 70s-80s jazz artists who use electic instruments, and who I have filed in the jazz section of my collection, therefore prog too? Why not? They are on my compilations with Metheny. C'mon, lets get David Sanborn, The Rippingtons, Special EFX, Passport, Ponty, Lee Ritenour, etc, etc, on here too!

I am sick of all this "Is my fave prog?" crap. It NEVER ends! Why is this sort of thing such a critical issue for so many?

Two guys (the originators and owners of the site) decide what is on here. (The alternative would be endless arguing.) They are human, not encyclopedias, and likely haven't heard every album in every one of our collections. My advice: deal with it, or start your own website.

If people really don't like this site, or the way it is run, or the way in which artists are classified, WHY DON'T THEY LEAVE?

(That was not meant for you personally, Sweetnighter, but for all the perpetual complainers -- those who come late to the game, don't find a particular artist, and make angry posts and assumptions about this site, its administration, and its reviewers, without bothering to find out how things work around here. Especially one!)

Edited by Peter

!

Peter wrote: Sweetnighter wrote: Oh come on! First off, if you haven't picked up any Metheny albums, do it. Secondly, what does BAFJG mean? DallasBryan, what album is it that you're thinking of, do you know? Why make that assumption? I have tons of Metheny albums, have been a fan since the 70s, and have seen him live twice. But A Fantastic Jazz Guitarist! (See the poll.) He belongs on a jazz site, not a prog rock one.  If it was up to me (but it's not, thank goodness!), no jazz fusion or metal would be here, because this is the sort of thing it leads to. I really like Metheny, but if he is prog, are all of the other 70s-80s jazz artists who use electic instruments, and who I have filed in the jazz section of my collection, therefore prog too? Why not? They are on my compilations with Metheny. C'mon, lets get David Sanborn, The Rippingtons, Special EFX, Passport, Ponty, Lee Ritenour, etc, etc, on here too! I am sick of all this "Is my fave prog?" crap. It NEVER ends! Why is this sort of thing such a critical issue for so many? Two guys (the originators and owners of the site) decide what is on here. (The alternative would be endless arguing.) They are human, not encyclopedias, and likely haven't heard every album in every one of our collections. My advice: deal with it, or start your own website. If people really don't like this site, or the way it is run, or the way in which artists are classified, WHY DON'T THEY LEAVE? (That was not meant for you personally, Sweetnighter, but for all the perpetual complainers -- those who come late to the game, don't find a particular artist, and make angry posts and assumptions about this site, its administration, and its reviewers, without bothering to find out how things work around here. Especially one!)

Oh I wasn't doubting that you had Metheny albums, but somebody asked "who?" so I was addressing that post as well as yours in my response.

And why make a big deal out of it? Alright, the guys who own the site determine what they consider to be prog and they put those groups/musicians in the archives. As a result, those who largely agree with what they put in the archives come to converse with other prog fans on this web forum. Now, does that mean that if somebody has a slightly altered version of what they consider to be prog, that its wrong? In making this poll I wanted to see if anybody else agreed with me on the point that Metheny's group has many progressive rock elements in its music. Nothing more, nothing less. I'm asking for the opinions of others, I'm not trying to claim the site owners as having made some mistake.

The other point you made brings up other questions that need discussion, not here though, but in another thread. Is Jazz Fusion a form of Progressive Rock or not? Is "Prog Metal" really prog? Of course we all have our opinions...  think that some metal and death-metal groups included on the site don't qualify for what I consider to be prog, whereas some jazz-rock artists I enjoy listening to, in my mind's eye (or ear) play progressive rock... of course thats just my opinion! Others are entitled to theirs and I'm not trying to challenge anybody.  

^ Thanks for the cool-headed response, Sweetnighter.

As I've long said here, what we each like/dislike/call "prog" is a highly subjective thing, on which there will NEVER be consensus.

Sometimes I just weary of all the "is this prog?" "who is the best?" type threads -- because of the subjectivity involved, I find them to be basically pointless.

Still, as you suggest, such can provide for "interesting," if passionate, discussion.

As Maani would say:

peace!