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Your favourite Punk albums?

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Logan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 08 2024 at 14:54
Only White Light / White Heat gets Proto-Punk as one of its main genres. With rateyourmusic it makes more sense to look at the specific albums and to use the specific term they use and look at the definitions which are linked.

Primary: Experimental Rock, Noise Rock, Proto-Punk
Secondary: Garage Rock, Psychedelic Rock, Spoken Word

And The Velvet Underground & Nico has it as a secondary genre:
Primary: Art Rock, Experimental Rock
Secondary: Proto-Punk, Noise Rock, Garage Rock, Psychedelic Rock, Art Pop

No where does it just say punk there for that. People at PA would often say that Proto-Prog is not the same as Prog (I would counterargue that they overlap and there is often no clear dividing line).

Here is how Proto-punk is defined at rateyourmusic:

Originally posted by Rate Your Music on Proto-punk Rate Your Music on Proto-punk wrote:

Proto-punk is a fairly vague term used to describe music that either influenced or resembled Punk Rock before the commercial breakthrough of punk in 1976. Common characteristics include provocative attitude, use of noise or abrasiveness, wild, untamed energy and stripped-down simplicity. It's closely associated with the Garage Rock music of the 1960s.

Sometimes the line between proto-punk and punk rock is blurred – even artists who belonged to the CBGB punk scene of the early-to-mid 1970s have been labelled proto-punk simply because they predate the commercial breakthrough of Sex Pistols.


I don't have a problem with this, and would have said that VU has proto-punk or punk-like qualities on albums just by using my own ears and also know it had an influence on punk.

I am barely a member of RYM (well, I have an account but only used it briefly), funny how often I have defended it, but I think people have been unfair and careless in criticisms.

Edited by Logan - December 08 2024 at 15:03
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 08 2024 at 15:09
^ i love RYM. It's the best music database on the interweb as far as i'm concerned and doesn't have the ANNOYING deadbeat owner problems that this site does.



Edited by siLLy puPPy - December 08 2024 at 15:10

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 08 2024 at 15:16
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

^ i love RYM. It's the best music database on the interweb as far as i'm concerned and doesn't have the ANNOYING deadbeat owner problems that this site does.


Proto-punk is not a music genre, anything proto-whatever is not a genre, just an umbrella term that explains the roots or the origins of a genre, retrospectively. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 08 2024 at 16:44
Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

^ As a starting point for my own entire list, I had decided to use RYM's Punk definition because I see some good reason in it. So it's not about my own idea and feelings of true Punk because that was formed in the late 1970s after hearing some British Punk Rock and not least Sex Pistols. 
You do as you please. Personally I don't see the point of not trusting one's ears every once in a while. There's just no way The Cult - Love is punk, even in the slightest. It looks silly seeing it mentioned here.

I'd say, it's more about brain than ears. Big smile

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 08 2024 at 18:42
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

^ i love RYM. It's the best music database on the interweb as far as i'm concerned and doesn't have the ANNOYING deadbeat owner problems that this site does.


Proto-punk is not a music genre, anything proto-whatever is not a genre, just an umbrella term that explains the roots or the origins of a genre, retrospectively. 




Well, correct. I thought that was obvious. Same with proto-metal and proto-anything. It's a collection of influences that led to a genre. It's a useful tag for anyone digging up influences though.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 09 2024 at 00:32
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Proto-punk is not a music genre, anything proto-whatever is not a genre, just an umbrella term that explains the roots or the origins of a genre, retrospectively. 


Well, correct. I thought that was obvious. Same with proto-metal and proto-anything. It's a collection of influences that led to a genre. It's a useful tag for anyone digging up influences though.

True. Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote A Crimson Mellotron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 09 2024 at 01:20
Hmmm... what about none? Can't stand punk. Thumbs Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 09 2024 at 05:31
Top 20 Proto-Punk Bands

Blue Cheer
The Dictators
Dr. Feelgood
Flamin' Groovies
The Fugs
Iggy Pop & the Stooges
The Kingsmen
MC5
The Modern Lovers
The Monks
New York Dolls
Ted Nugent & the Amboy Dukes
Pink Fairies
The Shaggs
The Sonics
Television
Them
The Troggs
Velvet Underground Thumbs Up
The Wailers
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 09 2024 at 06:32
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

^ i love RYM. It's the best music database on the interweb as far as i'm concerned and doesn't have the ANNOYING deadbeat owner problems that this site does.

That was actually grotesque if you ask me, and I have a very good knowledge of the two sites as well. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 09 2024 at 07:13

Anyway, my list is still growing, as I now also added

Joy Division  (UK)  -  Closer  (Post-/Gothic, 1980)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 09 2024 at 07:22

And here's another of the true Punk anthems, from The Dead Kennedys' Fresh Fruit for Rotting Vegetables:

                     


Edited by David_D - December 09 2024 at 13:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 09 2024 at 09:20

To all Punk purists, I can also tell that I now write in my OP: "My own list is based on RateYourMusic's retrospective and very broad Punk definition......Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 09 2024 at 09:41
Originally posted by A Crimson Mellotron A Crimson Mellotron wrote:

Hmmm... what about none? Can't stand punk. Thumbs Down


Does that include all post-punk and all music that you would consider to be punk related?

---------------------

By the way, my list before which I thought I might get called out on for some additions, goes into more than what I would consider just punk, but punky music and punk related music.   While I compiled this from some polls I made, it still took some time to edit and add here and I thought it may be seen to have some value to the list-making and discussion and quickly fell several pages down.

Bauhaus: In the Flat Field (1980) / The Sky's Gone Out (1982)
Black Country, New Road: For the First Time (2021) / Ants From Up There (2022)
black midi: Schlagenheim (2019) / Hellfire (2022)
Camberwell Now: The Ghost Trade (1986) / Dejaunost v študentskem (Live, 1987)
Cardiacs: A Little Man and a House and the Whole World Window (1988) / On Land and in the Sea (1989)
Nick Cave and The Bad Seeds: Your Funeral ... My Trial (1986) / Let Love In (1994)
The Chameleons: Script of the Bridge (1983) / Strange Times (1986)
Cocteau Twins: Garlands (1982) / Head Over Heels (1983)
The Comsat Angels: Waiting for a Miracle (1980) / Sleep No More (1981)
The Cure: Pornography (1982) / Disintegration (1989)
Daughters: Daughters (2010) / You Won't Get What You Want (2018)
Deep Turtle: Snakefish (EP, 1992) / There's a Vomitsprinkler in My Liverriver (1994)
Devo: Q: Are We Not Men? A: We Are Devo! (1978) / Duty Now for the Future (1979)
Dog Faced Hermans: Hum of Life (1993) / Those Deep Buds (1994)
Echo & The Bunnymen: Porcupine (1983) / Ocean Rain (1984)
The Fall: Hex Enduction Hour (1982) / Perverted Language (1983)
Faraquet: Faraquet / Akarso (EP, 1999) / The View From This Tower (2000)
Geese: Projector (2021) / 3D Country (2023)
IDLES: Brutalism (2017) / Joy as an Act of Resistance. (2018)
Interpol: Turn on the Bright Lights (1982) / Antics (2004)
Joy Division: Unknown Pleasures (1979) / Closer (1980)
Killing Joke: Killing Joke (1980) / Night Time (1985)
Magazine: Real Life (1978) / Secondhand Daylight (1979)
Melt-Banana: Cell-Scape (2003) / Fetch (2013)
Minutemen: What Makes a Man Start Fires? (1983) / Double Nickels on the Dime (1984)
Mission of Burma: Vs. (1982) / The Obliterati (2006)
The National: Alligator (2005) / Boxer (2007)
Colin Newman: A-Z (1980) / Not To (1982)
Parquet Courts: Light Up Gold (2012) / Wide Awake (2018)
Pere Ubu: The Modern Dance (1978) / Dub Housing (1978)
Iggy Pop: The Idiot (1977) / Lust for Life (1977)
Protomartyr: The Agent Intellect (2015) / Relatives in Descent (2017)
Public Image Ltd.: Metal Box (1979) / The Flowers of Romance (1981)
Siouxsie and The Banshees: Juju (1981) / Tinderbox (1986)
The Sisters of Mercy: First and Last and Always (1985) / Floodland (1987)
Skids: Days in Europa (1979) / The Absolute Game (1980)
Patti Smith: Horses (1975) / Radio Ethiopia (1976)
The Sound: Jeopardy (1980) / From the Lions Mouth (1981)
Sumo: Divididos por la felicidad (1985) / Llegando los monos (1986)
Squid: Bright Green Field (2021) / O Monolith (2023)
Swans: Children of God (1987) / The Great Annihilator (1995)
Talking Heads: Fear of Music (1979) / Remain in Light (1980)
Television: Marquee Moon (1977) / Adventure (1978)
Thinking Fellers Union Local 282: Mother of All Saints (1992) / Strangers From the Universe (1994)
This Heat: This Heat (1979) / Deceit (1981)
Tuxedomoon: Desire (1981) / Holy Wars (1985)
Violent Femmes: Violent Femmes (1983) / Hallowed Ground (1984)
Wipers: Is This Real? (1980) / Youth of America (1981)
Wire: Chairs Missing (1978) / 154 (1979)
XTC: Drums and Wires (1979) / Black Sea (1980)

Various of those are questionable, but it's a quality and relation that I see in all of these.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 09 2024 at 09:54
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

^ i love RYM. It's the best music database on the interweb as far as i'm concerned and doesn't have the ANNOYING deadbeat owner problems that this site does.

That was actually grotesque if you ask me, and I have a very good knowledge of the two sites as well. 

What's grotesque is that this site crashes on me almost every time I visit it. The forum doesn't work, messages don't work etc etc etc

NEVER happens on RYM which is impeccably maintained and updated regularly.




Edited by siLLy puPPy - December 09 2024 at 09:55

https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 09 2024 at 09:57
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:


To all Punk purists, I can also tell that I now write in my OP: "My own list is based on RateYourMusic's retrospective and very broad Punk definition......Wink
I like your broad-brush approach..... If the definition of Punk Rock is broadened to include Post-Punk, then there are several bands I do like, including Simple Minds, The Smiths & U2.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 09 2024 at 10:35
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

 
...
Patti Smith: Horses (1975) / Radio Ethiopia (1976)
XTC: Drums and Wires (1979) / Black Sea (1980)
...

Hi,

I'm not sure these fit in the "punk" category. Patti was more about her words and poetry, than it was about anything else, though in a place like NY, she did not fit with VU, and ended up being fit as "punk", something that I'm not sure she is at all ... if you read her book (about Mapplethorpe's time) ... you'll find her very together and strong ... 

XTC, is kinda hard to explain, and sometimes I think that they are "anti-punk" since what they did was not exactly crap, and they were extremely creative and exploratory, something that I'm not sure many would say about the punk scene, which is seen by many as just a publicity stunt, and not a whole lot of artistic merit ... though I believe they had a right to do what they did and their over reaction to other musics out there, was valid, if not unnecessary. Pompous stuff will fall on their own via their own pomposity!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 09 2024 at 11:39
I was saying punk or related for my list, and Patti Smith does seem punk associated to me (has punky/ punk-like qualities to me ears). I see that RateYourMusic classifies Horses primarily as Proto-Punk, Singer-Songwriter, Art Rock, and Radio Ethiopia primarily as Art Rock, Proto-Punk.

As for XTC, I would put those in the having Post-Punk qualities category.

Generally I much prefer what will often fall into Post-Punk than Punk proper.

I offered the RYM description of Proto-punk in this thread already, here is how they (Rate Your Music) describe Post-Punk (not that I have been using that as my main music site resouce for long enough that I often tend to associate the way they do):

Originally posted by RYM RYM wrote:

With its roots in the mid to late 1970s, post-punk emerged alongside the initial Punk Rock explosion in the United Kingdom. While retaining punk rock's focus on trimming away excess, post-punk tends to place more importance on creating atmosphere and usually has more complex songwriting than punk rock. Musicians tend to be much more experimental, often incorporating influences from Dub, Funk, Krautrock, Art Rock, Experimental music, and Electronic music. Unlike New Wave, its more Pop-based counterpart which emerged around the same time, post-punk often deals with more serious subject matter.

Stylistically, the genre has a general backbone consisting of a prominent, pulsating sound and rhythm section of bass and drums. On top of this arrangement are atmospheric, spiky, interweaving lead guitar lines commonly described as "angular", creating a cold and melancholic tone with extensive use of minor key melodies. Vocals tend to be menacing, monotone and in some cases, even robotic.

Public Image Ltd., formed after the implosion of Sex Pistols, are often heralded as the first post-punk band, although artists in the New York punk scene like Television had been much earlier playing an experimental style of punk rock that would later be classified by some as post-punk. Other (mostly British) bands followed, including Joy Division, Talking Heads, Gang of Four, and Wire and the genre came into its own in the late 70s, reaching its underground peak in the early to mid 80s.

Post-punk's underground popularity helped create many offshoots. Its sorrowful atmosphere was merged with increasing theatrics and influences from Glam Rock to create Gothic Rock, which bands like The Cure and The Sisters of Mercy leveraged to great chart success in the late 80s and helped form the pervasive Goth subculture. The bouncy syncopation and overall funkiness of post-punk bass is exploited to its maximum in Dance-Punk which saw mainstream popularity in the mid 2000s. Coldwave, popular in continental Europe and especially France, was a colder, more methodical affair which took influence from the avant-garde and science fiction. No Wave was a New York-based movement which took influence from post-punk and punk rock but focused on experimentation above all else. Post-punk's first wave saw a decline in underground popularity after the mid 80s as it was subsumed by new wave, gothic rock, Alternative Rock, and Alternative Dance, all genres which took heavy influence from the original post-punk movement.

After a period of declining interest in the 1990s, a mainstream Post-Punk Revival emerged in the early 2000s centred around the New York City scene, with bands like The Strokes and Interpol spearheading a movement which took influence from earlier post-punk bands but had an increased focus on Indie Rock and pop song structures. This approach allowed the revival to quickly spread worldwide, with bands outside New York joining the fray, including Franz Ferdinand and Bloc Party. The movement was incredibly successful with multiple bands obtaining chart hits and was heralded by publications such as NME as a "new rock revival", although it ultimately proved to be short-lived as other strains of indie rock took over by the mid 2000s. An underground resurgence of interest in the genre developed in the early 2010s with bands like Preoccupations and Protomartyr eschewing the earlier revival's focus on accessibility and returning to the punk and experimental ethos of first wave post-punk.


Edited by Logan - December 09 2024 at 11:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 09 2024 at 11:50
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:


To all Punk purists, I can also tell that I now write in my OP: "<span style=": rgb248, 248, 252; font-family: "Times New Roman", Times, serif; font-size: medium;">My own list is based on RateYourMusic's retrospective and very broad Punk definition......</span>" Wink
Rock and Post Rock is a thing too. But someone stating that their favorite ROCK album is Ágætis Byrjun because its labeled Post Rock over at RYM (and everywhere else), don't understand why Rock is Rock and Post Rock is Post Rock. It's like including a bunch of random Post-Modernists as your favorite Modernists.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 09 2024 at 11:53
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

^ i love RYM. It's the best music database on the interweb as far as i'm concerned and doesn't have the ANNOYING deadbeat owner problems that this site does.
That was actually grotesque if you ask me, and I have a very good knowledge of the two sites as well. 
What's grotesque is that this site crashes on me almost every time I visit it. The forum doesn't work, messages don't work etc etc etc

NEVER happens on RYM which is impeccably maintained and updated regularly.

To be sure you got this post of mine correctly and as first, I assumed that your post was an (indirect?) comment to Cristi's criticism of RYM's credibility; and what I found grotesque was this crticism if comparing RYM's credibility to PA's.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 09 2024 at 15:51
^ i'm criticizing technical housekeeping. This site is poorly maintained. I LOVE the site and the enthusiasm that has created a spectacular database. This site could be so much better though if it was run by someone who cared more.

https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy
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