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omphaloskepsis View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

Well, on the other hand, Mark Rothko's works are precisely targeted at the hipster experts who are not artists. Those works tick all the right boxes. And if you look at Rothko that way, he was a genius after all. It takes tremendous skill in salesmanship and psychological manipulation to pass off 'a big pile of nothing' as a mastepiece to a delusional ignorant who claims to be an expert 👍


I'm not an artist I like Rothko.  I find Rothko's journey stunning, fascinating, and vivid. If you find yourself in Houston,  I recommend the Rothko Chapel.  It's spiritually astounding.Shocked   
 What band would be the analog counterpart to Rothko? 


Edited by omphaloskepsis - August 03 2024 at 03:39
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Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

 What band would be the analog counterpart to Rothko? 
John Cage - 4'33

Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

I'm not an artist I like Rothko.
That's the thing. People who are artists themselves always have their art tastes shaped by what influenced their own art to some extent, as well as the knowledge they've acquired on their personal journeys as creators. And because Rothko's art is so strange and unique in presentation, artists find it to be less relatable than non-artists would.

Because non-artists' perception of someone else's art isn't connected with their own art, while artists' perception is.

Edited by Hrychu - August 03 2024 at 03:53
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Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

...
People who are artists themselves always have their art tastes shaped by what influenced their own art to some extent, as well as the knowledge they've acquired on their personal journeys as creators. And because Rothko's art is so strange and unique in presentation, artists find it to be less relatable than non-artists would.
...

Hi,

Just saw the special documentary on Ennio Morricone ... and if you want to see how someone "creates" something, you got to see it ... it's very long and detailed, but the respect, the creativity and the way he came up with things, is downright excellent, and is very experimental and kinda "hidden" in many parts, but he added so much to all the music he made for so many films, that hardly anyone in this special can say something that is not neat and far out.

Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

...
Because non-artists' perception of someone else's art isn't connected with their own art, while artists' perception is.

Hi,

I'm not sure that a lot of folks can understand this statement ... everyone is connected in some way, although very differently ... and rock music has made us "believe" that the lyrics are important, and they are not exactly the "movie" of the music at all ... and this is made very clear in the Ennio Morricone special ... some directors did not like this or that, and wanted to change it, only to find out later that what Ennio did worked well with the visuals ... and this is something that we, as fans< DO NOT SEE at all, but is a part of a lot of composition in music, though in this case the film helps make it come alive ... and other than the film on cinematographers, this is the musicians version of how to do it, and few directors know how to use it, and some just let the "poetry" work its magic, because some of them knew Ennio could make it special and he did in so many films, though we can only whistle the western themes.
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"I don't get it" could simply mean the listener hasn't yet grown to appreciate the music, as it may not be very accessible. Only after many listens will a listener "get" the music in question. And perhaps they'll never "get it."
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Originally posted by Cinema Cinema wrote:

"I don't get it" could simply mean the listener hasn't yet grown to appreciate the music, as it may not be very accessible. Only after many listens will a listener "get" the music in question. And perhaps they'll never "get it."


And what is very accessible to one may not be to another.  I would add that it may require the right music stepping stones and experiences to appreciate an album's idiom, kind of expression.  Sometimes you have to hear music at the right time, in the right mindset, and have had enough experience with related music.  I find that my music trip can be journey of associations.  I may not "get" album y -- have the right experiences, for me, to put it in the right context, for me at least -- before hearing albums or acts s, t, u, v, w, and x.  Tastes and interests change over time (so do personalities to whatever extent as we experience new to us things and enforce and embrace thoughts) and we each have our own  music journeys and evolutions so to speak.
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Originally posted by Cinema Cinema wrote:

"I don't get it" could simply mean the listener hasn't yet grown to appreciate the music, as it may not be very accessible. 
...

Hi,

Possibly, however, if I take Space Pirate Radio as an example in 1974 when it started (had baby steps in 1973), there was a lot of NEW music that Guy played that had never been on radio before, and I do not remember a lot of folks not appreciating it, although Guy always said that there was one or two callers to the station, likely stoned senseless that would say ... play Led Zeppelin, man!.

However, I agree with the accessibility of it all, and it is something that I describe/discuss a lot ... when you hear so much "classic rock" (let's say), one thing becomes clear ... your mind gets used to hearing a few things, and when you hear something new and very different, the chances that most can end up appreciating right away, is a problem ... your mind is plastered with other well known (specially the hits) music that is believed to be the "best" and "right", and thus something new will not sync in right away ... it may come back later and get a different feel and perspective, but I have not met a lot of folks other than a handful here on PA that ended up picking up the unheard material and started enjoying it a lot.

But there were, many, including myself, Paul, and obviously Guy ... and several friends who just loved it and took to anything new so fast that I am not sure most PA folks can relate to it ... Wink  LOL

Originally posted by Cinema Cinema wrote:

...
Only after many listens will a listener "get" the music in question. And perhaps they'll never "get it."

Not always, again, it ends up being a part of the stuff that you are used to hear and it starts the circle all over again. Some folks think that repeated listens brings out the magic in it all, and that is not true ... if you learn meditation, and learn relaxation, you can pick these things up the first time, and never forget them. And I can tell you that Guy, Paul and myself remember a lot more of the music we met and learned from, than most folks, I think ... and my talking about so many of them all the time, here, is often an issue for some ... what the heck does he really like?

Another thought is ... the "style" and "idea" that it has to be prog, progressive or rio, or whatever, which breaks up your appreciation of music and a lot of different things will not sync in properly when you first hear it, and I suppose that at that moment you might hear it again a few times, but I have never in 60 years had to do that to any music ... I always sat to listen to it in its entirety and with attention, and the memories and thoughts of day one are still alive ... 

It's all a matter of how perceptive and acute your imagination is, I guess ... but in my case I appreciate ALL MUSIC and a style, or this or that is nothing to me, thus I can hear Beethoven, Berlioz, Stravinsky, Beatles, Amon Duul 2, Faust ... and TFTO ... and love it each and every time, and the original images are still there ... though I have found that SW's redo's in some cases, has screwed up these visuals for me ... which is weird ... at least film, when it is redone and saved, is still there in its entirety and not "changed" as SW has done, which some folks like more than the original ... I don't ... there isn't a single redo or remaster that I have enjoyed more than the original ... and I think my inner movie is the clue!
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Hrychu View Drop Down
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Quote I'm not sure that a lot of folks can understand this statement ... everyone is connected in some way, although very differently
That's what I'm saying. Even though artists and non-artists might enjoy the product, at the end of the day, it's the artists who along with their vision and determination, are willing to keep the long tradition of the product being created.

That's why I encourage every prog music fan to get into making music. Whether it's playing an instrument, composition, programming chiptune songs in a DAW... This applies to visual art (painting/drawing/sculpting) too.

Once you learn how it's done and you choose to take the challenge to get good at it, your perception of the product will be tremendously enhanced.
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Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

Quote I'm not sure that a lot of folks can understand this statement ... everyone is connected in some way, although very differently
That's what I'm saying. Even though artists and non-artists might enjoy the product, at the end of the day, it's the artists who along with their vision and determination, are willing to keep the long tradition of the product being created.

That's why I encourage every prog music fan to get into making music. 
...

Hi,

I have a funny/weird thought about "fans" ... and in my imagination, they are the least capable listeners, since they are set to a specific style, or favorite band.

I'm not a "fan" at all ... music is (for me) the ultimate visual movie and that is the reality that it colors, and thus I don't need to be a "fan" at all to listen to anything ... all different music ways, live ... because I happen to enjoy that specific human expression ... it is bizarre to my imagination that someone loves the thrashing and then says Dolly is crap and Taylor is cheap. It's all music, and it is the most valued expression for all humans on this earth, and my only dislike is for countries/religions that tear down the arts ... in my book they are tearing themselves down faster than they care to know.

Again, if someone is asking, or saying "I don't get it", I will give them the space for it, but I'm not sure that they are listening to "music" ... they are listening to something their android noodles have not heard before because their attention was somewhere else. All music is out there, and John Phillip Souza is not any better than Bob Fosse, or Leonard Bernstein, or The Beatles, or ELP ... it's only that many of us have separated ourselves from the worldly expression of "listening" ... because they have their "favorite" this or that ... when you love all music and the expression itself, the "choice" as to your favorite is a mute point ... all of it is your favorite!
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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^This makes a lot of sense to me. I'm a "fan" I guess. It is beyond my control. But you're no saint. And you do this yourself
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

it is bizarre to my imagination that someone loves the thrashing and then says Dolly is crap and Taylor is cheap.
This is beautifully put and true though
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

It's all music, and it is the most valued expression for all humans on this earth, and my only dislike is for countries/religions that tear down the arts ... in my book they are tearing themselves down faster than they care to know.




Edited by Saperlipopette! - August 04 2024 at 07:49
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^Why do Prog Fans always degenerate to verbal fisticuffs over what they like?  

I don't get it.
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^ Didn't you ask the same thing on page 3 of this thread?

Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Why are prog music fans so defensive of their own personal music choices???

I just don't get it....
I have no answer. But it could be similar to why some guitarists hate Fender's and others hate Gibson's.
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Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

But it could be similar to why some guitarists hate Fender's and others hate Gibson's.
While others are overly defensive of Rickenbackers, despide the company's greedy deranged Cease & Desist ethics and decline in product quality. 😛
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Originally posted by Cinema Cinema wrote:

"I don't get it" could simply mean the listener hasn't yet grown to appreciate the music, as it may not be very accessible. Only after many listens will a listener "get" the music in question. And perhaps they'll never "get it."

It's not so much "I don't get it" as "It doesn't get me" interested, enthused or excited.




Edited by Hugh Manatee - August 06 2024 at 20:16
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Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

^Why do Prog Fans always degenerate to verbal fisticuffs over what they like?  

I don't get it.

Unfortunately that applies to a lot of fans in general these days, not just prog fans. People tend to get very insecure and defensive about the things they enjoy, a fact that has only been exacerbated further by the controntational nature of social media. And when someone ties their entire identity as a listener to one artist or genre, that just makes the situation even worse...
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Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

^ Didn't you ask the same thing on page 3 of this thread?

Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Why are prog music fans so defensive of their own personal music choices???

I just don't get it....
I have no answer. But it could be similar to why some guitarists hate Fender's and others hate Gibson's.

Har!  Real prog guitarists love BOTH Fender and Gibson!!  Ask Steve Howe!!  
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Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Har! Real prog guitarists love BOTH Fender and Gibson!! Ask Steve Howe!!
Yarr! Real real guitarists don't care about Fender and Gibson (overmythologized conservative boomer brands). They play whatever brand gets the job done and delivers the most sturdy high quality product. Like Per Nilsson for instance. Also, you don't need to validate your simping for classic boomer brands like Rickenbacker or Gibson by doing cargo cult stunts for Howe's or Squire's 🐔.

Edited by Hrychu - August 04 2024 at 23:52
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^Anyway, just to clarify. The post above was written in a sarcastic way. Honestly, both extremes are just as bad. Instead of either being a classic/boomer brand fanboy or avoiding them like a plague, just find the perfect guitar that suits your needs as a musician (yours, not Steve Howe's). The price tag is important, yeah, but not as important as it used to be. American made guitars retained only a fraction of the prestige they once had in the 50s-70s. But the logo and trademark don't mean anything anymore, as proven by Rickenbacker's fall from grace.

I use a MiM Fender Telecaster myself. ;) Not because it's a Fender but because I like its glossy maple fretboard and how well it records.

Edited by Hrychu - August 05 2024 at 00:32
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I had an epiphany.

"I don't get it" is just an euphemism for "I don't like it"
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There are several revisionists of Prog making YouTube vids and it doesn't always go well...imo...The majority of them don't percieve the impact people had on the 70s Prog generation. Keith Emerson was an outstanding keyboardist but he also had a major impact on musicians living in America during that time. He totally pioneered new ideas and ways of living the life of a keyboard player. He changed everything in the same way that Laura Nyro changed Pop Music by being daring...and simply writing dissonance in chord structure and making it accompany a melody or even a hit record.. Everybody borrowed from her. Everybody borrowed from Keith Emerson.

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^I'm confused how this post relates to this topic.
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