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The 1970s: counterculture, music, peace & struggle

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Hrychu View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hrychu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2024 at 09:08
But honestly, I would've actually much prefered Triumvirat's vocal department had it been sung in native German. At least during the Helmut Köllen era. Same for Eloy. :v I have no idea why it was so embarrassing for German vocalists to sing in their mother tongue.

Edited by Hrychu - November 10 2024 at 09:09
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote presdoug Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2024 at 09:41
Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

But honestly, I would've actually much prefered Triumvirat's vocal department had it been sung in native German. At least during the Helmut Köllen era. Same for Eloy. :v I have no idea why it was so embarrassing for German vocalists to sing in their mother tongue.
I believe, as has been pointed out, that it wasn't so much as being embarrassed, but in order for a group to stand a chance at being known, internationally, it was an obvious good move to sing in English. Imagine if Helmut Koellen had sung in German, only, the success Triumvirat had wouldn't have been....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hrychu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2024 at 11:26
Quote Imagine if Helmut Koellen had sung in German, only, the success Triumvirat had wouldn't have been....
Triumvirat is perhaps a bit of an exception. But, Le Orme got away with Italian lyrics and that didn't handicap their chance to be successful. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ And then you have "Germanic" bands like Banzaï (Flanders/Belgium), Kyrie Eleison (Austria) and Neuschwanstein (Germany). All of them featured only English language vocals. And they did not get commercially successful at all!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2024 at 14:57
Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

But honestly, I would've actually much preferred Triumvirat's vocal department had it been sung in native German. At least during the Helmut Köllen era. Same for Eloy. :v I have no idea why it was so embarrassing for German vocalists to sing in their mother tongue.

Hi,

I think this is a factor of the biggest place where things can sell, and that would be the United States, and then Great Britain, and both countries catered big time to the economic side of the music, something that many other countries did not do well. I suppose Italy and France are ... a bit weird in this department ... and their own languages seemed to be way more important than the English versions ... Ange never did anything in English that I can recall. I think that PFM hurt itself when it felt is had to do English so it could sell in America ... and surprise ... the imports did better when one considers all the years in between. Italy, however, had a massive history of music via opera like no one else ... so hearing things in Italian was never a surprise, but hearing them done in English was!!!

The USA, has an issue with foreign languages, and it took several artists in the 70's take that one ... remember Linda Ronstadt that went full Spanish ... and it not only sold but became well known ... she went after the Hispanic folks in the South and Southwest ... the record company was not happy, but they lost that battle when things sold ... and since then, the majority of the Latino/Hispanic folks have enjoyed a fairly good amount of sales. And, at the time, you did not hear any of them on the FM Radio, or on regular AM radio ... 

The bad attitude was visible during the Space Pirate Radio days ... but Guy had a funny way of getting people to not worry about the language issues ... it's like watching a Fellini movie without the subtitles ...  and a lot of fans enjoyed that kind of humor and then the bands being played. I don't think there was a single album, by PFM, Banco, Le Orme, Ange, AD2 (and just about all Krock folks), Granada, Mona Lisa, Sadistic Mika Band, and so many others that it would be nearly impossible for me to list ... that did a lot of their work in their own language ... and the kicker of it all was when the English version of Felona and Serona did not sell as much as the original ... which was an "import" that was really big and is still a favored album.

I think the German thing, could have roots to WW2 ... and it might have been better to leave it behind ... and of course, most of the schlagger was in German, and we know via Guru Guru ... that the new God of music was rock music, not the stuff without the feedback! That song, in TANGO FANGO is really important in its incredible levels of satire ... but it would be good for us to remember that in those days, the Short Wave Radio was massive all over Europe blasting the other side with Beatles and a lot of rock music which might have been the greatest inspiration for the younger generation being forced to eat schlagger. At that point, I imagine that German is not at all favored ... but that's just a thought.


Edited by moshkito - November 10 2024 at 14:59
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jamesbaldwin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2024 at 15:51
‘Bombs go off in the squares and these people go around singing Sweetest Mary [Dolcissima Maria]? Are you kidding me?’

With these laconic words, Area's Patrizio Fariselli not only hinted at what he thought of Pfm's new album [Isola di Niente], but also highlighted between the lines the musical divide that had been increasingly emerging since 1974: politicised experimental avant-garde on the one hand and a progressive stylistic softening on the other.

(Taken from this wonderful blog about Prog and counterculture: https://classikrock.blogspot.com/2009/09/pfm-lisola-di-niente-1974.html)

In 1974 in Italy there was a referendum in which Catholics (Christian Democrats) and neo-fascists (Social Movement) wanted to abolish the divorce law. The referendum saw the left win: divorce remained the law. 

In reaction to this (but not only to this, to a lot of things), a civil war climate broke out in Italy.

Deviated sectors of the secret services with black terrorism attempted to organise a coup d'état, which failed. They set off two bombs, one in the central square of Brescia (8 dead and a hundred injured), a town near Milan, the other on a train (12 dead and fifty injured).

For left-wing armed struggle groups, these bombs, reminiscent of those of 1969, are a sign that the fascists are trying to seize power.
We are in civil war, according to many.
From 1974 onwards, the left-wing armed struggle will move from demonstration operations with limited vioence to kidnappings and voluntary killings, i.e. political assassinations.

This is the sense of the phrase of Fariselli, the main composer of Area's music.
(In my opinion, ‘Dolcissima Maria’ is really one of the songs with lyrics and music that in Italy were only sung by the corny, cloying, hyperglycemic Sanremo festival singers such as I Ricchi e i Poveri: a real insult to left-wing prog- but Pfm was now aiming at the American market, they had betrayed Italian movementist prog)




Edited by jamesbaldwin - November 10 2024 at 16:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jamesbaldwin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 14 2024 at 17:23
FABRIZIO DE ANDRE' - STORIA DI UN IMPIEGATO

this album, published in 1973, explains what the atmosphere was like in Italy at that time

Read the wonderful review by Octopus-4

Even if this is not my favorite De Andre' album, I can't believe that it still has no reviews. It was released in 1973, during one of the worst periods of the Italian political history, just after a coup attempt organized by the CIA and after a number of terrorist attacks by the neo-fascists who caused huge number of deaths for years until the bigger one at Bologna's train station on August 2nd 1980. In the same period there were riots, clashes between police and left winged protesters, something that had its roots in the Berkeley riot in 1966 where the US police killed some students but had its official start in France on May 1968, with the movement lead by Cohn-Bendit.

This is the story. Fabrizio De Andre' writes a concept album about the 1968 French movement and how the middle class (the "Impiegato") reacted to it. Of course lyrics are often more important than music, even if Fabrizio was a classical trained guitarist.

"Introduzione"(Intro) takes less than two minutes. After a quite proggy instrumental part, Voice and classical guitar with just few synth behind says clearly what the album is about. "They had enough time, also for jail. Outside the same rage, the sane Spring were waiting for them". The second track, one of the most known of this album, starts immediately.

"Canzone del Maggio"(Song about May) is obviously referred to the rebellion in France on My '68. It's one of the protesters telling to the middle class "Even though you actually thought to be absolved, You were completely involved". It means that in front of a rebellion you are part of what happens regardless the side you decide to be on. The message is quite similar to the trade unions anthem written by Woody Guthrie: "Which Side Are You On". It also mentions things like the biased media coverage, something that doesn't seem to be different today, if not worsened. Musically speaking it has a little Country-rock flavor, do to the finger-picking and the harmonica, but the baritonal voice of Fabrizio has a particular tone.

"La Bomba In Testa" reprises the melody and the chord progression of the Intro. It tells the story of an anarchist who joines the cause, leaving his job and his good sentiments to become a "warrior". The song speaks of a bomb, but it's probably referring to the clashes at the Sorbona University. The last verse tells about "placing a bomb at a masked dance, and "Al Ballo Mascherato (To TheMask Dance)" is the following song. Totally different from the previous from a musical point of view, has a sort of fun feeling. Even if a bomb is about to explode, the participants are happily dancing. Still flavored by a Country feeling it's driven by the bass with the guitar sounding as much as possible like a fiddle.

"Sogno Numero Due(Dream #2)" is a prog song. It's uptime with a blown flute that reminds to "Concerto Grosso" by New Trolls more than to Ian Anderson. It explains what the previous song is really about. It this is the Dream #2, the Mask Dance is the dream #1. The anarchist dreams to put a bomb in a gala full of "celebrities". This second dream is about putting the judge, and the law itself, under trial. Making justice of the corrupt society of that time. If only he could have imagined how we would have ended to nowadays... Anyway, after the jazzy flute section there's a speech part backed by a percussive bass. This is the verse. The chorus is te instrumental part driven by the flute.

"La Canzone Del Padre (The Song Of The Father)" is folky and on the chord progressions more familiar to the listeners of De Andre'. It's very similar to the kind of songs of "La Buona Novella". It's not very easy to interpret because it's a true poetry. In the dream, the protagonist takes the place of his father dead in the bombing of the previous dream.

"Il Bombarolo(The bomber)" in now awake. After three dreams he decides to place a real bomb. He wants to make it explode in front of the parliament but by mistake it destroys only a newspapers kiosk. He is then arrested and jailed. The act is completely useless. Musically it's a nice folk tune with some unexpected passage.

Now what I think is the best song of the whole album: "Verranno a Chiederti del Nostro Amore(They'll come to ask you about our love)". It's a slow waltz. The bomber talks to his wife, who is now the wife of a jailed terrorist and is persecuted by the media. This is one of the best songs by De Andre' in terms of melody and chords progression. One of my favorites at least.

Finally, from the prison, the bomber has the time to rethink to his errors: the individual act has no meaning as a revolution must be carried on by the people. "Nella mia ora di liberta'(In my hour of freedom)" he decided to give up to that hour because he doesn't want to share it with the cops. In the end he has done a mistake, but his reasons were right. It's a slow finger-picking, again with a country-rock arrangement but with a interludes with a RPI flavor.

Not the best album by De Andre' but still an excellent one. Full of poetry as usual.

Somebody once said "Faber is the Italian Bob Dylan". He was replied: "Wrong. Bob Dylan is the American De Andre'".



Edited by jamesbaldwin - November 14 2024 at 17:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote presdoug Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 14 2024 at 19:14
^The English lyrics to that song by PFM are different than the Italian; same music, but the song "Just Look Away" is about a street musician playing his violin and being ignored by all the people hurrying by him.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 20 2024 at 23:31
Some of the English lyrics by PFM were written/translated by Peter Sinfield. He was granted some "creative freedom" by the band.
I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 06:33
Originally posted by presdoug presdoug wrote:

^The English lyrics to that song by PFM are different than the Italian; same music, but the song "Just Look Away" is about a street musician playing his violin and being ignored by all the people hurrying by him.....

Hi,

This is almost always an issue with translations since some of the bits and pieces would be particular to one area and not necessarily translate well to another. This was a HUGE issue in the translation of a lot of my own father's poetry into other languages, specially English ... all of a sudden, all of it became a sort of political activism, and not the real poem at all ... to be honest ... IT WAS DISGUSTING!

According to Pasolini, Italy had some serious political/philosophical problems in the country and they (usually) involved the north against the south (so to speak), but in general, anything was an excuse to say something good or bad about the other!

Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

Some of the English lyrics by PFM were written/translated by Peter Sinfield. He was granted some "creative freedom" by the band.

Still, as the example above, his translations were not that good ... and I have to re-read them now to see what other comments I can add/subtract ... but, again, the majority of translations are a serious issue in any language, and in the case of this political/social situation, it will suffer, and outsiders not exactly a part of it all will not interpret things better than otherwise.

This was a horrible issue in one story from my dad that was not political at all ... let's say that it fits well in a slightly older child story ... and the character found a piece of material on the road that was red, and put it on his shoulder ... and guess what ... the translation immediately made that a "symbol" against the authorities ... it killed the poem for me ... that had a nice, quiet, pastoral innocence (I really thought that was the idea behind the story, btw!!!), that all of a sudden was distorted viciously in my imagination ... felt like we're draining the children, kind of thing ... a la "City of Lost Children".

SIDE NOTE:
The harder part, and worst, is that we don't even care to understand or relate to the actual lyrics. If we take a year worth of news from London, 6 months before and 6 months after the release of ITCOTCK ... and then put that against the lyrics, you will find that many of them are very much on topic with some of the issues in that generation, up to and including the political/social situations, that in America were severely thrashed by the media via the White House (gotta make sure they don't know anything about VietNam ... ) ... to the point of thinking that all youngsters, EVEN listening to some of that music, were dirty, ugly and anti-American!!!!!  Thus, even English on English can not even get some respect and attention!!!

And guess what? ... this is still prevalent in America today! And a huge part why the "news", local or otherwise, are completely ignored because of the Internet.

My main concern here, is that because of the words, a lot of the artistic material is ignored ... and not given proper credit and attention ... thus America will only recognize "art" when it sells for $1 million in NY ... and the rest? Toilet Poopoo!

SIDE NOTE 2: When the family went to Brazil in 1959, it might be thought of as dad wishing to leave his high level military standard for literature, as he was already fairly well known in the area of film reviews and literary reviews and translations of many books by that time. What we don't know is how much of it was a possible government threat against his family ... and pretty much all of the work after 1959, did not have political/social implications so visible at all ... and both parents NEVER EVER said anything about it ... and 4 years after dad passed away, mom was still being investigated in Santa Barbara!!!!! Probably due to stuff she was publishing, although most of it was literary minded and not political/social topics as far as I know. I have never seen a listing of the stuff she published at all, after dad passed away. But it's really hard to not think there was something to it, specially as the neighbor country had set out many years before to snuff out a lot of artists, writers, painters and others ... for political reasons, and many of them ran off to France, specially, and the rest of Europe to get away from the Generalissimo.


Edited by moshkito - Yesterday at 06:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 07:38

I guess that the most significant single expression of the Danish counterculture in the 1970s was establishment of Christiania. Here's something about it as it's written by Wikipedia.

"
Freetown Christiania (DanishFristaden Christiania), also known as Christiania or simply Staden, is an intentional community and commune in the Christianshavn neighbourhood of the Danish capital city of Copenhagen. It began in 1971 as a squatted military base.
....................
On 26 September 1971, Christiania was declared open by Jacob Ludvigsen, a well-known provo and journalist who published a magazine called Hovedbladet ('The main paper'), which was intended for and successfully distributed to mostly young people. In the paper, Ludvigsen wrote an article in which he and five others explored what he termed 'The Forbidden City of the Military'. The article widely announced the proclamation of the free town, and among other things he wrote the following under the headline "Civilians conquered the 'forbidden city' of the military"."

( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freetown_Christiania# )

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