Forum Home Forum Home > Topics not related to music > General discussions
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - QM: Does Time exist?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

QM: Does Time exist?
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 8>
Author
Message
  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
octopus-4 View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams

Joined: October 31 2006
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 14069 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: QM: Does Time exist?
    Posted: November 13 2024 at 08:01
As promised, I'm starting a thread about theoretical physics. It doesn't mean to be technical.
Theoretical physics is often source of phylosophical reasonings and the real existence of time can possibly raise an interesting discussion:

Let's start from a book: "THE END OF TIME" by Julian Barbour.

Imagine a whole Universe consisting of only three points and a single particle. The possible configurations of this universe are only three: particle in point A, particle in point B and particle in point C.
Lets take a photo of this Universe in all its possible states and make several copies,then call each photo "a slice of space".

Use the slices as a deck of playing cards, then watch them in rapid sequence.
We will have the impression of a particle moving randomicly from one point to another.
Now do the same with our Universe consisting of billions of light years in diameter and approx 10^80 protons. 

The sequence of these enormous slices of spaces is what we call "time".
The conclusion is that Everything may exist simultaneously. The illusion of Time depends only on the position of the slices.

This could potentially explain the two slit experiment and some of the weird paradoces of the quantum mechanics.

A colleague of Julian Barbour, Lee Smolin, has then published a book entitled "TIME REBORN", in which he presents the opposite vision: Time is substantial, absolutely real. 

Both the books are clear and enjoyable and despite the opposite opinions, the two scientists who are also colleagues in the same University, mention each other in a very respectfully way.


Now: which vision of TIME do you prefer is the right one, and why?




Edited by octopus-4 - November 13 2024 at 09:47
I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
Back to Top
octopus-4 View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams

Joined: October 31 2006
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 14069 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2024 at 08:04
Please forgive the syntax error in the thread title: EXIST not EXISTS...sorry
I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
Back to Top
Cristi View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Crossover / Prog Metal Teams

Joined: July 27 2006
Location: wonderland
Status: Online
Points: 43508 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2024 at 08:19
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

Please forgive the syntax error in the thread title: EXIST not EXISTS...sorry

You can easily edit that. Smile
Back to Top
octopus-4 View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams

Joined: October 31 2006
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 14069 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2024 at 08:26
Can't find a way...how?
I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
Back to Top
Cristi View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Crossover / Prog Metal Teams

Joined: July 27 2006
Location: wonderland
Status: Online
Points: 43508 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2024 at 08:32
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

Can't find a way...how?

The "edit post" in the "post options". Smile
Back to Top
octopus-4 View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams

Joined: October 31 2006
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 14069 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2024 at 09:49
Nice. I did't think the subject could be updated. Now I'll search the Quintorigo suggestion that I've made in 2010 on which I misspelled the band's name
I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
Back to Top
octopus-4 View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams

Joined: October 31 2006
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 14069 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2024 at 09:53
Of course the thread was closed 14 years ago, too late for a correction Dead
I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
Back to Top
Atavachron View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65240 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2024 at 16:04
I will have to cogitate on the things you outlined.

That aside, I tend to think it may not be possible to move at will between or with the slices of space/time, and so our notion of time travel is not feasible, at least using the example of a deck of cards being fanned, riffled, spread, or shuffled.





Edited by Atavachron - November 13 2024 at 16:05
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
Back to Top
Lewian View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: August 09 2015
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 14691 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2024 at 16:25
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

 
The conclusion is that Everything may exist simultaneously.  
People seem to think that it's crystal clear what it means to "exist". I don't think that at all.

Also, I wonder whether "simultaneous" itself is a notion that relies on a concept of time?
Back to Top
Starshiper View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 08 2024
Location: Englantic
Status: Offline
Points: 407 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Starshiper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2024 at 16:51
It's a very philosophical and scientific question that has been argued for centuries. Presentism argues that only the present is real, while the past and future have little reality. On this view, time really consists in our experience of duration, not as a measurable construct. On the other hand, eternalism maintains that all past, present, and future events are all equally real, much like all the points on a line are equally real points. Personally, I believe it is always only 'now'.
Back to Top
Valdez View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 17 2005
Location: United States
Status: Online
Points: 625 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valdez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2024 at 17:43
The measurement of time surely exists.  And if the sun rises and sets on a schedule (as it does) then it could be said to be keeping time. Although, if life as we know it did not exist, then the sun (and everything else) would be un-observable and would not exist. Time exists in our minds given our capacity to comprehend our surroundings.  Instinct, via seasons, is a timekeeper for many animals including man. Instinct can be said to be a clock of sorts that depends on a forward moving time, which is the future. Memory depends on times past. All crucial for survival in many ways.  When we die, we have 'Run out of time' as we know and observe it.

The ability to even imagine a point A or a point B requires time to do it in, as would any question that time could answer.  I'm thinking that if Time didn't exist then nothing else would. If consciousness (as we reckon it) didn't exist, then time wouldn't either. Ying Yang

Even if one could travel to the earths past, by rights, everything in the past should repeat exactly as it was.  which means that you could not be there.  The future is a roll of the dice that has not yet happened, and that would prohibit a visit.

Theories about multiple 'Timelines' also prove that time exists in theory. lol


Edited by Valdez - November 13 2024 at 18:16
https://bakullama1.bandcamp.com/album/sleepers-2024
Back to Top
yam yam View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator
Avatar
Crossover Team

Joined: June 16 2011
Location: Kerberos
Status: Offline
Points: 6343 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yam yam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2024 at 18:06
Time must exist, otherwise how would geologists have been able to dig up the fossilised remains of all these creatures that existed on Earth countless millions of years ago? The Earth is estimated to be about four and a half billion years old, yet to the average human being 100 years probably seems like an eternity - even though in reality it's just a tiny drop in the ocean - and to a mayfly, a single day probably seems like one too. I would imagine that all creatures are 'programmed' to perceive time differently, depending on how long their average lifespan is, but what 'force' is actually behind all this, I have absolutely no idea.
Back to Top
Valdez View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 17 2005
Location: United States
Status: Online
Points: 625 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valdez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2024 at 18:40
Originally posted by yam yam yam yam wrote:

but what 'force' is actually behind all this, I have absolutely no idea.

Assuming Time is real (I think it is) Then the force just may be water, excited by energy produced by radiation and magnetism... Magnetosphere protects earth from the void and too much radiation, The right amount of Radiation that is magically allowed through powers (Charges) the Sea and salts like a battery from which all life emanates. The Core of the earth is like a dynamo. The Universe is electric. 

I'm wildly speculating. I wrote it all down in great detail once when I was high on pot about 40 years agoBig smile
https://bakullama1.bandcamp.com/album/sleepers-2024
Back to Top
Atavachron View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65240 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2024 at 18:50
^ Electricity is one of the most underappreciated energies, and may be responsible for much more than we think.
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
Back to Top
yam yam View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator
Avatar
Crossover Team

Joined: June 16 2011
Location: Kerberos
Status: Offline
Points: 6343 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yam yam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2024 at 18:54
Originally posted by Valdez Valdez wrote:

I wrote it all down in great detail once when I was high on pot about 40 years agoBig smile
Lol! I've never tried the stuff myself as a lifelong non-smoker, but I imagine the whole universe - never mind just time - takes on a whole new perspective when you're three sheets to the wind on the green goddess!
Back to Top
Atavachron View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65240 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2024 at 18:55
Originally posted by yam yam yam yam wrote:

Time must exist, otherwise how would geologists have been able to dig up the fossilised remains of all these creatures that existed on Earth countless millions of years ago? The Earth is estimated to be about four and a half billion years old, yet to the average human being 100 years probably seems like an eternity - even though in reality it's just a tiny drop in the ocean - and to a mayfly, a single day probably seems like one too. I would imagine that all creatures are 'programmed' to perceive time differently, depending on how long their average lifespan is, but what 'force' is actually behind all this, I have absolutely no idea.


Time perception as it's related to time itself does seem based on what one is doing or thinking, which is itself indicative of how time functions.
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
Back to Top
Starshiper View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 08 2024
Location: Englantic
Status: Offline
Points: 407 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Starshiper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2024 at 18:58
Originally posted by yam yam yam yam wrote:

Time must exist, otherwise how would geologists have been able to dig up the fossilised remains of all these creatures that existed on Earth countless millions of years ago?
Geologists use various techniques to date rocks and fossils (such as radiometric dating) and analyse them within their current context. This methodology does not require belief in the existence of time as an entity featuring past, present, and future, but rather focuses on what can be observed 'now.' Because those remains are part of our observable reality. Geologists can dig up fossilised remains because these fossils exist as tangible objects in the present moment. I mean, what we call 'time' is actually countless 'nows.'
Back to Top
Valdez View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 17 2005
Location: United States
Status: Online
Points: 625 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valdez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2024 at 19:13
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ Electricity is one of the most underappreciated energies, and may be responsible for much more than we think.


Yes… water as well. All life is born of it. Our atmosphere is water, we die without water, and we are basically water. It took billions of years for water to self actualize. Water is smart.!   Water is the closest thing to a God we have that we can actually touch.

(Takes long hit off bong… cough cough)

Edited by Valdez - November 13 2024 at 19:24
https://bakullama1.bandcamp.com/album/sleepers-2024
Back to Top
Valdez View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 17 2005
Location: United States
Status: Online
Points: 625 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valdez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2024 at 19:57
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

 
The conclusion is that Everything may exist simultaneously.  


People seem to think that it's crystal clear what it means to "exist". I don't think that at all.

Also, I wonder whether "simultaneous" itself is a notion that relies on a concept of time?


I agree. The notion of simultaneousness would rely and depend on measurable time. Existence itself is a given even if we don’t fully understand the how and why.
https://bakullama1.bandcamp.com/album/sleepers-2024
Back to Top
Valdez View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 17 2005
Location: United States
Status: Online
Points: 625 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valdez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2024 at 20:02
I’m not really smoking weed at my age. Just kidding.   funny because I’m re-watching fringe right now and timelines are all messed up.

Edited by Valdez - November 13 2024 at 20:08
https://bakullama1.bandcamp.com/album/sleepers-2024
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 8>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.164 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.