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PA the only site to recognize J-R Fusion as Prog?

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Jacob Schoolcraft View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jacob Schoolcraft Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2024 at 18:10
J R Fusion has obviously been an element in Prog for many years. Greenslade played that particular style often, but they also added in Classical. On all of their studio albums you'll find both styles arranged to fit in a song with lyrics..however if you dropped the tone arm on the Jazz Fusion section you might confuse them with a Fusion band.

Curved Air Phantasmagoria sets an example of Jazz Rock in 3/4 yet the band has mostly classical leanings.

Steve Howe was often jazzy being influenced by Jim Hall. But does it fit into Yes? Yes it does because Rick Wakeman, Chris Squire and Bill Bruford knowing better than to outplay Steve Howe and giving him some space. Certain skilled keyboardists will add in too many notes when a guitar player takes a solo and they wipe them out. They are limiting the guitarist in their soloing. Yes never did that. They granted each other space and it helped them to create beautiful music...The guitar player has 5 fingers to form notes where a pianist has 10 fingers and has a track record of playing over top of other people's solos and not willing to give that guitarist some space.

This occurs often in the Jazz Rock Fusion world of egocentric mechanical gymnastic players who don't care about creating music with melody and often perceive music as a bunch of stunt car racers on a track...literally...and when they hear a fantastic melody they laugh at it because they think it's below them. That's a sickness. It's not music. Improvisation has its place in music ...but if you continue to follow just that one path and always make music about competition then your closing off a love that is unconditional. Nature will not inspire you if your head is swimming in competition with other musicians. It's high school malarkey.







Edited by Jacob Schoolcraft - September 23 2024 at 18:13
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Saperlipopette! View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2024 at 05:37
^ I do understand where you are coming from and generally agree with most of what you write here. You use the group dynamics in Yes and how they gave Steve Howe the space he needed while soloing as an example. Which is fine. I personally happen to think that in the world of Jazz Rock Fusion, the "egocentric mechanical gymnastic player" is the guitarist in nine out of ten times. What instrument you use as an example is really beside the point though. It's just that to me the guy with only five out of ten fingers is usually the greatest offender (which is probably why I tend to lean towards guitar-less fusion bands).

-Maybe I'm less into beautiful melodies than you. Or perhaps we simply use the same words in different ways. I primarily feel that those who "perceive music as a bunch of stunt car racers on a track<" sabotage the almost telepathic sort of interplay you get when great musicians build something together - as a collective force*. It’s not really about not getting in the way of a beautiful melody to me. The egocentric musician gets in the way of… "the musicking musician" perhaps.

*When I phrase it like that, it’s really no wonder most great musicians seem to belong to the political left:)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jacob Schoolcraft Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2024 at 07:47
Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

^ I do understand where you are coming from and generally agree with most of what you write here. You use the group dynamics in Yes and how they gave Steve Howe the space he needed while soloing as an example. Which is fine. I personally happen to think that in the world of Jazz Rock Fusion, the "egocentric mechanical gymnastic player" is the guitarist in nine out of ten times. What instrument you use as an example is really beside the point though. It's just that to me the guy with only five out of ten fingers is usually the greatest offender (which is probably why I tend to lean towards guitar-less fusion bands).

-Maybe I'm less into beautiful melodies than you. Or perhaps we simply use the same words in different ways. I primarily feel that those who "perceive music as a bunch of stunt car racers on a track<" sabotage the almost telepathic sort of interplay you get when great musicians build something together - as a collective force*. It’s not really about not getting in the way of a beautiful melody to me. The egocentric musician gets in the way of… "the musicking musician" perhaps.

*When I phrase it like that, it’s really no wonder most great musicians seem to belong to the political left:)


Interesting viewpoints here!!
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verslibre View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2024 at 10:42
Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

I personally happen to think that in the world of Jazz Rock Fusion, the "egocentric mechanical gymnastic player" is the guitarist in nine out of ten times. What instrument you use as an example is really beside the point though. It's just that to me the guy with only five out of ten fingers is usually the greatest offender (which is probably why I tend to lean towards guitar-less fusion bands).


It's safe to say John McLaughlin is the reason Jan Hammer bailed out of Mahavishnu, after which he and (violinist) Jerry Goodman recorded Like Children, which I think is better than anything M.O. did while Hammer was in the band.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Starshiper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2024 at 13:18
Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

I personally happen to think that in the world of Jazz Rock Fusion, the "egocentric mechanical gymnastic player" is the guitarist in nine out of ten times. What instrument you use as an example is really beside the point though. It's just that to me the guy with only five out of ten fingers is usually the greatest offender (which is probably why I tend to lean towards guitar-less fusion bands).


It's safe to say John McLaughlin is the reason Jan Hammer bailed out of Mahavishnu, after which he and (violinist) Jerry Goodman recorded Like Children, which I think is better than anything M.O. did while Hammer was in the band.
Better? Really? Though Goodman and Hammer's approaches to the drums and guitars are entertaining, they are ultimately not McLaughlin and Cobham.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dapper~Blueberries Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2024 at 21:40
Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

Do you consider J-R Fusion as a form/expression of Prog


I think it ultimately depends. Like, stuff like Soft Machine, or Mahavishnu Orchestra are definitely fusion bands, but they're also prog rock. Same with Chicago being both prog and jazz rock.

However I wouldn't consider stuff like Miles Davis, Santana (Unless we're talking about Caravanserai), and Steely Dan prog, even if their sounds are still very much in tune with the rock genre. I guess they're more jazz/rock than prog in those regards, rather than having a in-between of prog and jazz/rock.

I am fine with jazz rock and fusion being on the archives, but I do agree with those who see them as seperate genres to the prog rock mythos.
D~B
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2024 at 23:00
Originally posted by Starshiper Starshiper wrote:

Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

I personally happen to think that in the world of Jazz Rock Fusion, the "egocentric mechanical gymnastic player"
is the guitarist in nine out of ten times. What instrument you use as
an example is really beside the point though. It's just that to me the
guy with only five out of ten fingers is usually the greatest offender
(which is probably why I tend to lean towards guitar-less fusion
bands).


It's safe to say John McLaughlin is the reason
Jan Hammer bailed out of Mahavishnu, after which he and (violinist)
Jerry Goodman recorded Like Children, which I think is better
than anything M.O. did while Hammer was in the band.
Better?
Really? Though Goodman and Hammer's approaches to the drums and guitars
are entertaining, they are ultimately not McLaughlin and Cobham.
Music is art, not a sport. "Better" or not depend on what you seek for in music/art. I much prefer Miroslav Virtuos over Jaco Pastorius (in Weather Report) as well. Although I suppose the latter would have won some kind of bass-battle between the two, I think the former is better at serving the groups music. Talking about sports, here's a quote from Caitlyn Schrepfer. A world champion freestyle soccer/football professional:

"Freestyle soccer is unique in that it really is the art of movement with the ball. To me, complexity is increasingly difficult techniques and fluidity of movement. There truly are an unlimited amount of tricks, but this is my personal interpretation of the challenge. Knee juggles, feet juggles, flick ups, blocks, crossovers, advanced blocks, clipper, sitdowns, thigh pops, no touch combos, ‘around the moon,’ and a handful of stalls and ‘around the world’ tricks" - The most complex of her levels include transitions, acrobatic tricks, and creative self expression.

-I have no doubt her technique is beyond excellent, but I wouldn't want her on my football team. I wouldn't want a peak-era self-indulgent John McLaughlin (ca. 71-73) in my band either. Not if I could have someone like Terje Rypdal instead. A "world champion" on a musical instrument is of very limited interest to me in itself.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2024 at 23:15
Oh my goody god there is actually a thing called 'freestyle soccer'? ConfusedDead
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2024 at 23:32
Originally posted by Dapper~Blueberries Dapper~Blueberries wrote:

 
I am fine with jazz rock and fusion being on the archives, but I do agree with those who see them as seperate genres to the prog rock mythos.

Prog defies genre boundaries. For instance, arguing only on the basis of PA genres and ignoring other multi/tag based systems, one would be hard-pressed selecting only one of PA's genres as the "nucleus" of prog. Most would intuitively choose Symphonic Prog - but that excludes King Crimson and Jethro Tull. I'd wager that if you managed to get the ten most knowledgable persons in this forum to pick their 20 favourite releases which capture the essence of classic prog rock in the 1970s and compiled the result, you would end up with releases from at least five PA genres.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2024 at 00:22
Originally posted by Starshiper Starshiper wrote:

Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

I personally happen to think that in the world of Jazz Rock Fusion, the "egocentric mechanical gymnastic player"
is the guitarist in nine out of ten times. What instrument you use as
an example is really beside the point though. It's just that to me the
guy with only five out of ten fingers is usually the greatest offender
(which is probably why I tend to lean towards guitar-less fusion
bands).


It's safe to say John McLaughlin is the reason
Jan Hammer bailed out of Mahavishnu, after which he and (violinist)
Jerry Goodman recorded Like Children, which I think is better
than anything M.O. did while Hammer was in the band.
Better?
Really? Though Goodman and Hammer's approaches to the drums and guitars
are entertaining, they are ultimately not McLaughlin and Cobham.


And Mac and Bill aren't Jan and Jerry. It's a wildly different aesthetic on Like Children: more textured, more melodic, less w**ky, just as virtuosic. I just prefer it. No, there's no Mac-styled guitar, just as there's no Hammer-styled keys on later Mahavishnu records.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Starshiper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2024 at 00:36
Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by Starshiper Starshiper wrote:

Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

I personally happen to think that in the world of Jazz Rock Fusion, the "egocentric mechanical gymnastic player"
is the guitarist in nine out of ten times. What instrument you use as
an example is really beside the point though. It's just that to me the
guy with only five out of ten fingers is usually the greatest offender
(which is probably why I tend to lean towards guitar-less fusion
bands).


It's safe to say John McLaughlin is the reason
Jan Hammer bailed out of Mahavishnu, after which he and (violinist)
Jerry Goodman recorded Like Children, which I think is better
than anything M.O. did while Hammer was in the band.
Better?
Really? Though Goodman and Hammer's approaches to the drums and guitars
are entertaining, they are ultimately not McLaughlin and Cobham.
I wouldn't want a peak-era self-indulgent John McLaughlin (ca. 71-73) in my band either. Not If I could have someone like Terje Rypdal instead. A "world champion" on a musical instrument is of very limited interest to me in itself.
"Apples and oranges, my dear Watson; while both may grace the fruit bowl, one hardly expects to find a crisp cider brewed from an orange."
ECM artist Rypdal's sound is more ethereal and experimental, whereas McLaughlin's approach actually symbolises the jazz-rock genre with its complexity and virtuosic playing style.

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

I personally happen to think that in the world of Jazz Rock Fusion, the "egocentric mechanical gymnastic player" is the guitarist in nine out of ten times.
Your cup of tea, but don't forget that nine out of ten times a fan of jazz-rock gets laid back and enjoys "egocentric mechanical gymnastics."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2024 at 02:51
Originally posted by Starshiper Starshiper wrote:

"Apples and oranges, my dear Watson; while both may grace the fruit bowl, one hardly expects to find a crisp cider brewed from an orange."
Yes and all I'm explaining is my approach. Two different tasting fruits doesn't mean you (or I) can't prefer oranges over apples. You seem to be on the one with the "competative" attitude as to who's the "best". I don't know why you think you have to explain to me what Terje Rypdal is about. I obviously wrote that I prefer him because I know what he represents.
Originally posted by Starshiper Starshiper wrote:

Your cup of tea, but don't forget that nine out of ten times a fan of jazz-rock gets laid back and enjoys "egocentric mechanical gymnastics."
Exactly, my cup of tea. I'm explaining my cup of tea - and why. Playing many notes really fast may have it's place every once in a while, but I mostly find it to be pointless and annoying. I cared more about such things when I was younger and into thrash and death metal (well, at least the fast part:).

Edited by Saperlipopette! - September 25 2024 at 03:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2024 at 03:28
^ Skilful fast playing is certainly not a "juvenile" thing ... apart from thrash and death metal, it is a core element of Jazz and Classical music as well. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2024 at 03:43
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ Skilful fast playing is certainly not a "juvenile" thing ... apart from thrash and death metal, it is a core element of Jazz and Classical music as well. Smile
There's an element of that. But so what? The child, much like one's juvenile side likes to be impressed. But these things tend to change over the years. I still like every band of my metal years (and countless more discovered later). I do however think about what impressed me back when I was a teenager differntly now.

In classical music you don't stand a chance without being extremely skillful at your instrument. But skills and complexity are used and presented in vastly different ways. It's still no coincidence that the coloratura-soprano and Paganini is seen as vulgar. They are considered show-offy for the sake of showing off.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2024 at 03:47
^ Sure, I'm just saying that highly skilled virtuosic playing is not in itself something that is only appreciated by unsophisticated teenagers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2024 at 03:53
^I didn't actually mean to write that. But to be honest there's is a side to me that thinks John McLaughlin's playing at his most frenetic in the early MU years, is somewhat... immature (but I don't think he is like that all the time - or thorughout his career).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hrychu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2024 at 04:01
Quote It's still no coincidence that the coloratura-soprano and Paganini is seen as vulgar. They are considered show-offy for the sake of showing off.
Sorry for chiming in. But you keep forgetting one thing. If those "vulgar" "show offy showoffs" sound good and fit the vibe of the song, I don't see why you should avoid them.

Also, WHO exactly considers this vulgar? Are those people privileged to set a verdict? If so, are those privileges verifiable? I'd say that since there are so many "schools" to how one can be a classical music expert, it's not so easy for the consumer to tell who is right.

I'm just rambling, so take this post with a tiny grain of salt.
“On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.”
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2024 at 04:11
I think we can all agree that skilful virtuosic playing in itself is neither good nor bad, it's just one element of many. And subjective preferences aside, the key to creating a good track/song is for the musicians to use whichever elements make sense and work well together to achieve the desired outcome. Smile

When it comes to JRF, technical prowess is certainly an element that is emphasised and/or appreciated more than usual among the typical audience.

BTW: Here's one of my favourite JRF combos, rarely to be captured on video. Enjoy!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2024 at 04:25
Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

Quote It's still no coincidence that the coloratura-soprano and Paganini is seen as vulgar. They are considered show-offy for the sake of showing off.
Sorry for chiming in. But you keep forgetting one thing. If those "vulgar" "show offy showoffs" sound good and fit the vibe of the song, I don't see why you should avoid them.

Also, WHO exactly considers this vulgar? Are those people privileged to set a verdict? If so, are those privileges verifiable? I'd say that since there are so many "schools" to how one can be a classical music expert, it's not so easy for the consumer to tell who is right.

I'm just rambling, so take this post with a tiny grain of salt.
No worries:) "They" are privileged as "tastemakers" in the sense that over the decades or centuries, the once celebrated coloratura-sopranos has ended up an obscure interest kept alive by very few (within a field of music that's already for the few). Paganini is seen a little like the Malmsteen of classical music. I like a lot of music of lesser cultural value than both of them, and have no issues with either. This is not based on personal opinion but a kind of consensus powerful enough to have an impact on how these things are generally seen.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Starshiper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2024 at 05:15
Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

I don't know why you think you have to explain to me what Terje Rypdal is about.
Do we discuss jazz-rock as prog stuff? Though it would be too heretical to say on these pages that Terje Rypdal is not prog at all as he got his entry in the PA database, he is, in fact, an experimental jazz guitarist whose best albums are ECM-style free jazz. I mind you that Manfred Eicher produced only one ECM album as prog in his career, and that is David Torn's 1987 Cloud About Mercury, an atypical ECM album that really can be safely considered full-blown prog. On the other side, the Mahavishnu Orchestra's high-energy jazz-rock is more like instrumental progressive rock than jazz.


Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ Skilful fast playing is certainly not a "juvenile" thing ... apart from thrash and death metal, it is a core element of Jazz and Classical music as well. Smile
The dizzying speeds of guitarists, very flashy for that time, are a feature of the genre. Whether one likes it or not. By the way, good-for-nothing amateur guitarists who have tried and failed tend to detest McLaughlin and Di Meola.
You are aware, though, that the jazz-rock genre also features some beautiful guitar solos that emphasise melody over speed.




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