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Catcher10
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
Status: Offline
Points: 17845
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Topic: What are we to do in an era with out privacy? Posted: August 27 2024 at 10:01 |
Privacy?? As was stated already we all live in a glass house, pretty much. Why would anyone be worried about privacy? I guess maybe one should define what privacy we are worried about. I can't imagine anyone being pissed or worried that any govt is reading your texts and emails or online posts, unless you are writing about stuff they actually care about like radical terrorist stuff. If you are then you deserve to be spied on and you have no right to any privacy.
Does the US govt know how much money I have? Of course they do and I don't care, nothing I can do about it but probably keep it all under my mattress. Most people who lose their money its because they fell for online scam or simply blew it all.
If I travel to another country do I expect that govt to spy on me, sure why not but I highly doubt it. Most govts know who they need to watch and I am not one of them LOL.
At a deep level privacy does not exist, not sure it ever did.
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21121
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Posted: August 27 2024 at 01:15 |
^ Sure. It's bad, whatever you call it. And before you assume too much, I think that communism is equally bad, albeit in a different way.
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Online
Points: 65243
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Posted: August 27 2024 at 00:56 |
Yeah it's called capitalism.
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21121
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Posted: August 27 2024 at 00:55 |
^ That kind of money (upper middle class / millionaire) has no real power, it's peanuts compared to the families owning the private banks which de facto own the USA. That's trillions of dollars.
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
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Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Online
Points: 65243
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Posted: August 27 2024 at 00:51 |
Sure in the US power lies with the money, but plenty of people have money and are not twisted fascists. They aren't 'rich' or Republican, they just have money. The whole culture is based on work & income, it always has been. That's why it's a rich country, and money can be used for good. You have to be well-funded if you're gonna instigate positive change.
Edited by Atavachron - August 27 2024 at 01:51
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21121
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Posted: August 27 2024 at 00:46 |
Atavachron wrote:
^ I remember those times, and I was fairly anti-gov myself.
But then certain traitorous psychotics such as Trump came in to office and suddenly, relatively speaking, the government was more on the side of the People in defense of Democracy (as flawed as it may be). Almost overnight the FBI was no longer a corrupt authoritarian agency but rather a watchdog against those who wanted to overthrow the Constitution simply because they didn't like the more progressive direction the U.S. was taking. Suddenly us peaceniks were in defense of the country against extremism, and the Far-Right were the subversive ones promoting lawlessness and seditious revolution.
Funny how things change.
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Picture a world without Trump. Imagine you could snip your fingers and he would not only be gone, but erased from history. Would that solve our problems?
I don't think so. In the USA the power lies with the money, not with the people. The (extremely) wealthy are running the show, including politics. This German cartoon hits the nail on the head:
Edited by MikeEnRegalia - August 27 2024 at 00:48
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Saperlipopette!
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 20 2010
Location: Tomorrowland
Status: Offline
Points: 11589
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Posted: August 26 2024 at 23:28 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
It's fascinating - from my childhood I
remember (or at least I think I do) that people used to be really
critical of the government, to the point that they had to resign when
they messed up too badly. These days nobody ever resigns, or if they do
they are just moved to different positions.
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You are not wrong.
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
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Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Online
Points: 65243
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Posted: August 26 2024 at 23:20 |
^ I remember those times, and I was fairly anti-gov myself.
But then certain traitorous psychotics such as Trump came in to office and suddenly, relatively speaking, the government was more on the side of the People in defense of Democracy (as flawed as it may be). Almost overnight the FBI was no longer a corrupt authoritarian agency but rather a watchdog against those who wanted to overthrow the Constitution simply because they didn't like the more progressive direction the U.S. was taking. Suddenly us peaceniks were in defense of the country against extremism, and the Far-Right were the subversive ones promoting lawlessness and seditious revolution.
Funny how things change.
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
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Points: 21121
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Posted: August 26 2024 at 23:05 |
Lewian wrote:
You are probably aware that the Querdenker movement introduced the term for themselves before anybody else used it to refer to them... Also their argument came to the people from all over the place, but many people just didn't like it. Tough luck. I don't know a single person who wasn't aware that it was around and where to find what the Querdenkers think. Actually pretty much all people I know got far more exposition to it than they wanted (except of course those who agreed with the argument, as everybody likes to have their opinions backed up by others). |
It doesn't really matter how the term "Querdenker" originated - during the pandemic the media ran with it and established it as a pejorative for anyone who questioned the government talking points. And the negative connotation stuck, independently of the specific arguments or whether they got corroborated by facts. It was all generalised, and of course there were some really crazy arguments (I remember David Icke suggesting that 5G caused Covid symptoms) which you would not want to be associated with.
It's fascinating - from my childhood I remember (or at least I think I do) that people used to be really critical of the government, to the point that they had to resign when they messed up too badly. These days nobody ever resigns, or if they do they are just moved to different positions. I don't know - maybe I have a glorified memory of the past, and it has always been this way.
Edited by MikeEnRegalia - August 26 2024 at 23:07
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
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Points: 21121
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Posted: August 26 2024 at 22:58 |
Atavachron wrote:
^ Once again you assume those you disagree with are uninformed and in denial. That is a huge mistake.
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Your assumption is not correct. Sure, I think that SOME people are uninformed, some are in denial. But this system of suppression works even when many are "in on it". The point is that there is no organised resistance, people overall just accept that the government is beyond (serious) criticism. You can mock them (we do), explain how they're incompetent and corrupt (they are/we do), but at the end of the day they still take our money away, and we are light years away from any workable way to replace them with something better.
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Lewian
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 09 2015
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 14691
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Posted: August 26 2024 at 16:57 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
This has been discussed before here, leading to the inevitable insults and then the closing of the thread(s). Let's see how long it takes here ...
On the topic of "suppressing free speech": That is so 20th century. Today's leaders have learned from their mistakes and are now using more sophisticated means of controlling the populace. Cancelling, "Othering", Shadow-banning ... those are much more effective. As a specific example, in Germany (where I was born and lived until 2021) during the pandemic the word "Querdenker" emerged. Pure genius! Instead of suppressing criticism of the government, it was branded as pure lunacy, and people were conditioned by basically all mainstream media to ridicule any criticism without even listening to the argument. This mechanism automatically contains/isolates any criticism of the system without the need for any authoritarian action someone could point the finger at and complain about. |
You are probably aware that the Querdenker movement introduced the term for themselves before anybody else used it to refer to them... Also their argument came to the people from all over the place, but many people just didn't like it. Tough luck. I don't know a single person who wasn't aware that it was around and where to find what the Querdenkers think. Actually pretty much all people I know got far more exposition to it than they wanted (except of course those who agreed with the argument, as everybody likes to have their opinions backed up by others).
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Online
Points: 65243
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Posted: August 26 2024 at 16:09 |
^ Once again you assume those you disagree with are uninformed and in denial. That is a huge mistake.
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21121
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Posted: August 26 2024 at 16:06 |
This has been discussed before here, leading to the inevitable insults and then the closing of the thread(s). Let's see how long it takes here ...
On the topic of "suppressing free speech": That is so 20th century. Today's leaders have learned from their mistakes and are now using more sophisticated means of controlling the populace. Cancelling, "Othering", Shadow-banning ... those are much more effective. As a specific example, in Germany (where I was born and lived until 2021) during the pandemic the word "Querdenker" emerged. Pure genius! Instead of suppressing criticism of the government, it was branded as pure lunacy, and people were conditioned by basically all mainstream media to ridicule any criticism without even listening to the argument. This mechanism automatically contains/isolates any criticism of the system without the need for any authoritarian action someone could point the finger at and complain about.
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Online
Points: 65243
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Posted: August 26 2024 at 15:52 |
^ Yes I know, exactly my point.
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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Lewian
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 09 2015
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 14691
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Posted: August 26 2024 at 15:43 |
Atavachron wrote:
Finally someone who not only lives in said countries, but knows some history.
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That's nice of you; still, to set the facts straight, I'm from Germany, have lived there some 35 years and still have close contacts there, but now live in Italy.
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Online
Points: 65243
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Posted: August 26 2024 at 15:36 |
Lewian wrote:
I'm from Germany. I know a lot of people who say anti-government stuff. None of them was arrested. The word "targeting" can have a wide range of meanings so you'll find the odd story to back that up. Not everybody can say absolutely everything legally in Germany, that's true, for example Holocaust denial. You may think that absolutely everything should be freely said, insults, slander, lies, incitement of hatred and violence, and that's OK, but there is a point for not allowing everything. Anyway examples for restriction of freedom of speech are few and far between. | Finally someone who not only lives in said countries, but knows some history. Saying that Anti-government speech is being suppressed (which in some cases it is) is becoming another way for Far-right conservatives to say 'We wish our countries were a little more xenophobic, a little more Christian, and a little more anti-abortion... oh, and we're tired of losing elections.'
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group
Site Admin
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Vancouver, BC
Status: Offline
Points: 35743
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Posted: August 26 2024 at 15:07 |
^ True. At one time I might sooner have expected the kind of propagandist that supports Prog Supremacy to be dominant at a Prog forum, but the propagandist seeks to disseminate their views any chance they get. And at a forum like this they can feel special, like the voice of reason (the one who holds the key to truth) amongst the ignorant masses, instead of one of many in more echo chamber type places which attract many like-mined people. Oh, they will still argue the details of their favourite conspiracy theories etc. at many venues.
Edited by Logan - August 26 2024 at 15:18
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10616
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Posted: August 26 2024 at 14:17 |
The propagandist is on a mission.
Edited by Easy Money - August 26 2024 at 14:22
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group
Site Admin
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Vancouver, BC
Status: Offline
Points: 35743
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Posted: August 26 2024 at 13:27 |
Sean Trane wrote:
lazland wrote:
I give this thread another two days max before it is zapped.
ADMIN! |
It won't be because of the topic itself, but because of the interveners insulting each other.
| But since we officially have a moratorium on political threads, I don't see one keeping politics out of the discussion. It is a very political topic. And topics that encourage conspiracy theory type thinking generally are problematic.
Edited by Logan - August 26 2024 at 13:30
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omphaloskepsis
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2011
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 6339
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Posted: August 26 2024 at 12:06 |
Lewian wrote:
omphaloskepsis wrote:
Lewian wrote:
omphaloskepsis wrote:
Governments want 100% control over all social media sites. The government's goal is to control the narrative and prevent any speech or opinion that contradicts the government's narrative. Free Speech morphs into opinions and narratives that agree with the government's narrative. Any narrative or opinion that disagrees with the government's narrative is Hate Speech. |
I'm surprised that I see so much anti-government speech then, all over the place. Wasn't it you yourself who linked piles of youtube videos that make your anti-government point? |
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I'm from Germany. I know a lot of people who say anti-government stuff. None of them was arrested. The word "targeting" can have a wide range of meanings so you'll find the odd story to back that up. Not everybody can say absolutely everything legally in Germany, that's true, for example Holocaust denial. You may think that absolutely everything should be freely said, insults, slander, lies, incitement of hatred and violence, and that's OK, but there is a point for not allowing everything. Anyway examples for restriction of freedom of speech are few and far between. |
- You're spot on about Holocaust denial.
- Germany's parliament passed legislation in 1985, making it a crime to deny the extermination of the Jews. In 1994, the law was tightened. Now, anyone who publicly endorses, denies or plays down the genocide against the Jews faces a maximum penalty of five years in jail and no less than the imposition of a fine.
A couple of links to German Hate Speech raids:
https://apnews.com/article/germany-women-misogyny-raids-internet-hate-crime-31d3e61aab90bdce3f6f0d96e21d0fe4
https://apnews.com/article/europe-germany-3e4dfe0b9da0dcd54702569632642109
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