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Disappointing follow-up albums

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Logan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2024 at 09:03
I notice many more generally positive threads about music than negative if such threads sadden/ bother you.  Of course you are free to share your negative opinions on such things just as others are free to share their opinions. I might suggest, for some, focusing on those, and making one's own, than giving the negative threads more "legs".  While I do like the idea of being sensitive to artists, it is to be expected that as a forum of music fans we do have these kinds of frank conversations about what we like, don't like, unexpected joys, disappointments.....  Since you brought up Maddy Prior in this poll, Part 3 Female singers, this time of groups/collabs, I thought you might have some enthusiasm about her inclusion in this poll, 
Pt. 4: Some Female Singers in PA Not Listed Before, that I made yesterday.  When I make polls I hope that people will find something appreciative to say about any of the listed artists, but I am happy to hear about others too.  I generally do prefer it when people focus on the positive, are more appreciative of artists, topics, posts and other forum members, than those that are disparaging, but for a fuller forum, I would expected a spectrum of perspectives and approaches.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jared Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2024 at 09:32
I must admit, I had been thinking... wouldn't it be good if, rather than (or as well as) a thread on 'Disappointing follow-ups' we had a thread where we could think of bands who may have been on a slow downward curve of mediocrity, then maybe fresh blood or impetus causes them to make a surprisingly strong album, that no-one was expecting?

Just a thought... after the recent debacle on my 'underrated albums' thread, I certainly won't be starting another any time soon, but it might be an idea for some of the positivity Greg alludes to?
Music has always been a matter of energy to me. On some nights I believe that a car with the needle on empty can run 50 more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. Hunter S Thompson
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Logan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2024 at 10:36
^ That sounds like a great idea for a topic.  Thumbs Up  I might take it on later today if no one else does in the meantime.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve Wyzard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2024 at 11:19
One of the very best things about this site is the BRUTAL honesty of the reviewers/posters when it comes to music that is very well outside of the "mainstream" and is in no sense to be thought of as a status symbol. It shows that people really care about this music, to the point of being emotionally invested.

That being said, as the OP I'm a little bit stunned with the comments that this is a "disrespectful/negative" subject to be discussing. All I was thinking when I came up with the original idea was that sometimes the artists we enjoy record/release an album that doesn't live up to our expectations. Even if we take for granted that every album is going to be new and different from previous albums, is it wrong to expect that we will "once again" be pleasantly surprised, based on what they've given us previously? 

As with any artistic endeavor, there are, of course, no guarantees, and we take for granted that ALL artists will change/grow with the passage of time. If anything, we have it MUCH easier today, because we can sample/stream albums before purchasing them, which would have been unthinkable back when much of this music was originally released. I just do not see how it is somehow "disrespectful/disparaging" to desire a return on our investment of time/money, even if we acknowledge from the beginning that the artists who have given us something we enjoy in the past will not/cannot always do so.

Or is the real issue here the DEIFICATION of the artist? Simply because someone creates a work of art does not make them infallible, or somehow a higher-grade of human being who is beyond error and accountability. It's actually rather refreshing to hear a recording artist say in an interview, "We did the best we could, but that album didn't turn out the way I liked." I'm not convinced that saying, "I didn't like Album B as much as Album A that preceded it" is somehow "hurtful" to the artist. Nor does it bring them "down to earth". It's just an acknowledgement that every album is different, and some we like more than others.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2024 at 11:29
I think this is a very good topic and have no problem with it, in case my comment directed towards Moshkito's post was taken differently.  While I don't like to offend artists, and I think a certain level of tact commonly is advisable when talking about the artists themselves, honesty is important.  I wouldn't like it if we were all a bunch of fanboys just drooling over the artists' oeuvres.  It's normal to prefer some works by artists than others, the artists themselves commonly do, and some of them actually appreciate honest critiques of their works.  When it come to negativity, it's the negativity over the perceived negativity of others that most commonly gets me down.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2024 at 11:46
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

I think this is a very good topic and have no problem with it, in case my comment directed towards Moshkito's post was taken differently.  
...

HI,

No worries there at all. As you well know, I have ALWAYS been on the side of the artist, regardless. Sure, it could be said that one album or other is not as good, but, for me, that's like saying I wanted more of the same as the previous album, and that is something I do not like, or enjo at all ... and that is my only bug about a lot of prog rock being so formulaic, but that is not a comment on the musicianship involved, even though it might seem that way. I still listen to them all ... regardless. Again, for me, Beethoven's 9 Symphonies are all great ... and there is no such thing as one is better than the other, and I look at a lot of rock music exactly the same ... I can put on those disks of classical music and love them dearly ... heck, I have 3 versions of Turandot ... or a couple of versions of Tosca because Gigli's voice in one is out of this world ... 

There are a lot of things to find in those "lesser" albums, and in general, I tend not to comment on them much.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve Wyzard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2024 at 12:35
Just thought of 2 more:

1. ANDY SUMMERS/ROBERT FRIPP - I Advance Masked/Bewitched
2. PETER GABRIEL - III (Melt)/IV (Security)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2024 at 12:38
^^ I for one really appreciate diversity coming from artists, Pedro.  This can be from album to album or from track to track in an album.  While many pan it, I really enjoy Comus' follow up to First Utterance, To Keep From Crying, partially because it is so different on the whole.  I like the uniqueness of Merci in Magma's discography even if I don;t enjoy it nearly as much as the preceding Attahk, which also had been pretty unique to its discography.  Swans is one of my favourite bands but I have not got much into its first few albums as I like the change of direction with Jarboe, and then later albums, but I appreciate the diversity and that elements of those early albums persisted despite becoming more melodic later.  I appreciate contrast.

With Beethoven, I have a von Karajan box set of the none symphonies, which I prefer to other versions of those.  I do gravitate more to the Ninth and the Seventh the most of those.  While I was raised with classical music, a big part of my Beethoven fascination did come from the A Clockwork Orange and Zardoz films.  And awesome use of the second movement of Beethoven in this favourite short film of mine (no doubt it resonate more because of the music).




Edited by Logan - July 30 2024 at 12:40
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mornar Popaj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2024 at 14:01
Gentle Giant - Interview / The Missing Piece
Smak - Zašto ne volim sneg / Smak 86
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2024 at 14:09
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

No worries there at all. As you well know, I have ALWAYS been on the side of the artist, regardless. Sure, it could be said that one album or other is not as good, but, for me, that's like saying I wanted more of the same as the previous album, and that is something I do not like, or enjo at all ... and that is my only bug about a lot of prog rock being so formulaic, but that is not a comment on the musicianship involved, even though it might seem that way.


The musicianship isn't usually the problem. Choices are. When Twelfth Night lost their frontman-lyricist and replaced him and then they started sounding like a second-rate new wave band with an identity crisis, everything went downhill. That's not a criticism, that's an observation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2024 at 02:16
Originally posted by someone_else someone_else wrote:

Rush: Hold Your Fire / Presto
I think Hold Your Fire was a disappointing follow up to Power Windows. 
For me, presto was a return to form. Hot take, i know, but i think Presto is a better put together album than HYF. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2024 at 02:25
Originally posted by essexboyinwales essexboyinwales wrote:

IQ - Road Of Bones/Resistance
I agree. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2024 at 02:30
Originally posted by progaardvark progaardvark wrote:

Some more that come to mind:

Eloy: Metromania/Ra
Arena: Pepper's Ghost/The Seventh Degree of Separation
Atoll: Tertio/Rock Puzzle
Mike Rutherford: Smallcreep's Day/Acting Very Strange
David Bowie: Scary Monsters/Let's Dance
ELP: Brain Salad Surgery/Works Voume 1
David Gilmour: About Face/On an Island
IQ: The Wake/Nomzamo
Le Orme: Contrappunti/Smogmagica
Pendragon: Not of This World/Believe
Renaissance: Azure d'Or/Camera Camera
Supertramp: Brother Where You Bound/Free as a Bird

I agree with these ones. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2024 at 06:25
Miles Davis studio albums: "Get Up With It" - "The Man with the Horn"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2024 at 07:00
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Miles Davis studio albums: "Get Up With It" - "The Man with the Horn"
I thought about it. But as there's his famous six year hiatus from music in between those two - to me it primarely belongs in a "(most) disappointing comeback albums (of all time)" discussion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jared Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2024 at 07:12
Forget that one... already done it... Embarrassed

Edited by Jared - August 07 2024 at 07:13
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote essexboyinwales Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2024 at 10:03
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by progaardvark progaardvark wrote:

Some more that come to mind:

Eloy: Metromania/Ra
Arena: Pepper's Ghost/The Seventh Degree of Separation
Atoll: Tertio/Rock Puzzle
Mike Rutherford: Smallcreep's Day/Acting Very Strange
David Bowie: Scary Monsters/Let's Dance
ELP: Brain Salad Surgery/Works Voume 1
David Gilmour: About Face/On an Island
IQ: The Wake/Nomzamo
Le Orme: Contrappunti/Smogmagica
Pendragon: Not of This World/Believe
Renaissance: Azure d'Or/Camera Camera
Supertramp: Brother Where You Bound/Free as a Bird


I agree with these ones. Smile


Re IQ, and Nomzamo following up The Wake - to me there is so much context here - my entry into IQ was the 2 Menel albums, which I adored so much (and still do). I only came to the earlier albums much later. So Nomzamo was embedded in my brain as a wonderful album, and never viewed as a follow up to The Wake. How would I feel if I’d known and loved the band from the start? It’s literally impossible to say. And the same thing happens with so many other bands….

Another for me is Dream Theater - to me, Awake was a poor follow-up to I&W, which I loved so much (and still do). I appreciate Awake now, but it’s nowhere near the brilliance of it’s predecessor, for me!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2024 at 17:34
Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

...
The musicianship isn't usually the problem. Choices are. When Twelfth Night lost their frontman-lyricist and replaced him and then they started sounding like a second-rate new wave band with an identity crisis, everything went downhill. That's not a criticism, that's an observation.

Hi,

I would think that this seems like a lot more of a preference than a band issue. You liked the earlier stuff and musician, and the "replacement" is not good enough. Then we have the massive changes in a band like KC and all it does is send us all into a tiffy, because things are so different, and yet, they get played 30/40 years later in their shows ... and something of that nature would not be an observation of the whole thing going downhill but  a change to something else. Again, I would look at this as an artist decision, and us, the fans, not  liking it or thinking it is inferior is an external matter, not necessarily related to the band and its members ... 

This is a scary part ... people thinking one thing is better than the other because it was better received, and not quite appreciated as it was before ... times change, folks change, and we're suggesting that our favorite bands can not change with the times, place, equipment, and such at all, because it won't be as good as what we liked?

I keep thinking that it is a fan problem. Not an artist problem! But heck, sometimes, it's difficult to not say something ... I mean, after BAD, how could anyone do better or be more interesting? So yeah, it's easy to say something, but again, we did not take into consideration the drive and the workmanship that the artist took to try and live to that next release, and fan reaction ... the question is, are you an artist, or just a crowd pleaser for the money?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2024 at 19:09
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

...
The musicianship isn't usually the problem. Choices are. When Twelfth Night lost their frontman-lyricist and replaced him and then they started sounding like a second-rate new wave band with an identity crisis, everything went downhill. That's not a criticism, that's an observation.


Hi,

I would think that this seems like a lot more of a preference than a band issue. You liked the earlier stuff and musician, and the "replacement" is not good enough. Then we have the massive changes in a band like KC and all it does is send us all into a tiffy, because things are so different, and yet, they get played 30/40 years later in their shows ... and something of that nature would not be an observation of the whole thing going downhill but  a change to something else. Again, I would look at this as an artist decision, and us, the fans, not  liking it or thinking it is inferior is an external matter, not necessarily related to the band and its members ... 

This is a scary part ... people thinking one thing is better than the other because it was better received, and not quite appreciated as it was before ... times change, folks change, and we're suggesting that our favorite bands can not change with the times, place, equipment, and such at all, because it won't be as good as what we liked?

I keep thinking that it is a fan problem. Not an artist problem! But heck, sometimes, it's difficult to not say something ... I mean, after BAD, how could anyone do better or be more interesting? So yeah, it's easy to say something, but again, we did not take into consideration the drive and the workmanship that the artist took to try and live to that next release, and fan reaction ... the question is, are you an artist, or just a crowd pleaser for the money?


It's hardly a fan problem. Remember when Peter Nicholls left IQ and went and formed an alt-rock band called Niadem's Ghost (mislabeled on this site as neo)? Believe it or not, I like that album. The reviews here, save one, aren't kind, and they aren't forgiving, though IQ themselves were trying on a different hat 'round the same time.

Twelfth Night with Andy Sears (and then Martyn Watson) as their frontman sounded like an aspiring new wave band that tried, unsuccessfully, to have enough proggy flourishes to maintain their cult following. If you're unfamiliar with their repertoire, then I understand why we don't share the same perspective.

As the saying goes, I calls 'em like I sees 'em.

P.S. I've never heard anything King Crimson do send me "into a tiffy," whatever that may be.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2024 at 07:39
Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

...
It's hardly a fan problem. Remember when Peter Nicholls left IQ and went and formed an alt-rock band called Niadem's Ghost (mislabeled on this site as neo)? Believe it or not, I like that album. The reviews here, save one, aren't kind, and they aren't forgiving, though IQ themselves were trying on a different hat 'round the same time.
...
Hi,

My thoughts are that the artist has the option to do something else ... we, as fans, do not have the right to decide what the artist should do at all ... but sometimes, we think that as "critics" that we are more important than the artist and his/her output. This is one of the reasons why I do not do as many reviews of rock albums as I would like to ... I would love to see more folks separate their "favorites" for something else about the art of it all and how it grew in the past 500/700 years. It wasn't about the fans, all the way to the start of the 20th Century (more or less) when all of a sudden we got to see reviews of the new music, and Stravinsky threw people for loops, Debussy was booed ... and so on ... and to their credit they could fly a finger high, now ... they stood up for their work, although this might be different if there were no "changes" in the group ... but you and I know that different combinations yield different results, so it would be best to not expect the same thing.

I consider a "band" an artist ... and this  might be the difference between our words ... Yes is still Yes despite the different keys, for example. However, it seems to me that the majority of folks simply discuss all the music as SONGS ... for which they drop their coins. That is not me as a music appreciation person, and one that has been close to many artists during my life, and some are much better, stronger and appreciated than how rock fans differ when they don't like something, which is the saddest side of this whole adventure ... no one that plays music for a living wants to hear that ... and they better be strong inside to be able to ignore the comments ... many of which have nothing to do with music or the artist whatsoever.

Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

...
As the saying goes, I calls 'em like I sees 'em.
...

But that is about you, not the artist! Heck, he/she might as well be a dishwasher in a restaurant for all that matters! Wink ... just another dirty dish getting cleaned up!


Edited by moshkito - August 08 2024 at 07:44
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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