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Hrychu View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hrychu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2024 at 22:37
Quote Bashing RIO/ Avant-Prog and Klaus Schulze is just plain stupid (j/k)
Someone's defensive here. :v
Anyway, the counter-argument from those groups I've mentioned is usually a gatekeepingy one such as: "the music is too complex for you and you're just too simple to understand the genius of Henry Cow, Univers Zero, Cardiacs etc." or "you have no idea how important and groundbreaking Klaus Schulze's music was at the time". I don't like that approach because to me, music has to sound good and evoke the right kind of emotions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2024 at 04:25
Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

...
.... music has to sound good and evoke the right kind of emotions.

HI,

(cont'd) ... regardless of how we see it as one thing or another.
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2024 at 04:39
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Paul, I hate to bang on the Swans drum, but I thought you said you like Swans' The Burning World (one of the first albums I recommended to you by the band as I recall).  This is where I feel like it's good to judge by the album and even the song rather than making blanket statements based on limited exploring, focus and recollection. I don't mind people not liking what I like, by the way, but I want to understand people's thoughts in a more nuanced and complete way.   There are lots of bands that I would say that I generlly dislike while liking some music by the bands (and I explored more I would be likely to like more).  While I know you're not a fan of Rock Bottom, I am kind of surprised if none of the later Wyatt material appeal to you (assuming you have explored his discography beyond cursory listenings).

As you're probably aware by now, I always like to listen to an artist's complete discography in its entirety from beginning to end in order to get a full picture of an artist's musical history, but I just can't get past the Swans' (dreadful to my ears) first three albums. I know you may not agree with that approach, but that's Just the Way It Is. I'm just a dedicated dyed-in-the-wool completionist. I take just the same approach with my movie-watching too, where I'll watch an actor's entire filmography (where available) in chronological order from beginning to end. Smile



Edited by Psychedelic Paul - August 02 2024 at 05:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2024 at 06:29
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

...
I know you may not agree with that approach, but that's Just the Way It Is. I'm just a dedicated dyed-in-the-wool completionist. I take just the same approach with my movie-watching too, where I'll watch an actor's entire filmography (where available) in chronological order from beginning to end. Smile
...

Hi,

For the longest time, that was my way of listening to things, with one slight difference. When it comes to "progressive" I had already heard many of the early things by many of the bands ... thus, I was already onto the chronological order of things. Now, here comes joke time ... are you going to listen to 8 full Symphonies before you get to Beethoven's 9th? ... I DOUBT IT! You'll get bored because not all of the Symphonies are "dynamic like the 5th (start mostly) and the 9th, as is well known.

But there were some things onto the 90's and beyond that I did not bother with listening. I do not dislike DT, but never saw the point of listening to their earlier stuff, and in fact, I didn't enjoy it much. But other than that, Porcupine Tree started for me with the SIGNIFY album and I went forward several albums before I got the earlier stuff.

It is a good rule for folks learning about the music itself, but (in general) not exactly a good idea ... one can listen to Genesis from the beginning, and will get to the end, and go ... wtf? And the same for other bands.

Some bands I can listen to but are not my favorites. Rush is one of them ... as roomates in the mid/late 70's had their albums, but while nice, I was already full blast into the Europeans, and I did not think that Rush was as great as Banco, PFM. Le Orme, Ange, AD2, Can and so on ... and all of those I was there on the first album.

Listening habits today are tough ... I don't know that suggesting 10 albums (from the start, let's say) is a good idea ... folks mostly listen to 4-5 minute jingles (as I call them) and often times, many of the favored albums, are all song related in the same time frame (or thereabouts) and format ... but in our case, things change, and sometimes harshly ... which is not good for someone just learning about a band or "progressive".


Edited by moshkito - August 02 2024 at 06:31
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2024 at 06:32
Hi,

BTW Paul ... can you imagine Klaus Schulze from the start? Or Tangerine Dream?

Where's that insanity pill, Paul?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2024 at 06:41
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,

BTW Paul ... can you imagine Klaus Schulze from the start? Or Tangerine Dream?

Where's that insanity pill, Paul?
I don't need to imagine it, having already listened to the entire discography of Tangerine Dream and Klaus Schulze from beginning to end on my Tangerine Dream blog. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2024 at 08:02
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Paul, I hate to bang on the Swans drum, but I thought you said you like Swans' The Burning World (one of the first albums I recommended to you by the band as I recall).  This is where I feel like it's good to judge by the album and even the song rather than making blanket statements based on limited exploring, focus and recollection. I don't mind people not liking what I like, by the way, but I want to understand people's thoughts in a more nuanced and complete way.   There are lots of bands that I would say that I generlly dislike while liking some music by the bands (and I explored more I would be likely to like more).  While I know you're not a fan of Rock Bottom, I am kind of surprised if none of the later Wyatt material appeal to you (assuming you have explored his discography beyond cursory listenings).

As you're probably aware by now, I always like to listen to an artist's complete discography in its entirety from beginning to end in order to get a full picture of an artist's musical history, but I just can't get past the Swans' (dreadful to my ears) first three albums. I know you may not agree with that approach, but that's Just the Way It Is. I'm just a dedicated dyed-in-the-wool completionist. I take just the same approach with my movie-watching too, where I'll watch an actor's entire filmography (where available) in chronological order from beginning to end. Smile



It's not an approach that would work for me commonly, for one thing I haven't the patience, am not a completest, and would rather have time to discover more diversity of names, and for another, when I connect with an album I usually like to play it many times.  I would rather listen to lot of albums I love and that approach would mean that I might stop before I get to the stuff I would have liked and I might have to force myself through a lot of bad for my ears music.  There are some acts where that chronological approach could work really well for me and I would happily return to them to listen in chronological order.

I was something of a watching all of a director's films guy if the first film I saw, no matter where it come in the oeuvre, I loved and felt quite unique. To use a big name, I could see  a certain joy in going back to watch all of Kubrick's films in order, but then I would want to throw some Lindsay Anderson into the mix when it was time for A Clockwork Orange with Malcolm McDowell.

I can see listening to a whole discography in order, or reading a novelist's books in order (I have done that before), being interesting from an evolutionary perspective.  I like that listening to all by an artist can give you a fuller picture of the music.  I like that you can perhaps see a maturing phase and changes in style and interest with the artists.  It could be a really great journey and give more insight.  My issue would be that if you only listening to the start, that's fine for judging the start, but not the artist overall, and one should not assume that one will dislike everything based on that.  When I say I dislike an artist I often will say based on which material, but my approach makes it easier to change my mind if someone recommends other music by the artist.  That flexibility works for me.

Listen to music in the way that you get the most out of it.  What I think matters to me, but I would not say that it should matter to you.  There are many paths to Nirvana, follow your pilgrimage, follow your bliss.

I do get it, you have to do it your way.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2024 at 08:26
Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

Quote Bashing RIO/ Avant-Prog and Klaus Schulze is just plain stupid (j/k)
Someone's defensive here. :v
Anyway, the counter-argument from those groups I've mentioned is usually a gatekeepingy one such as: "the music is too complex for you and you're just too simple to understand the genius of Henry Cow, Univers Zero, Cardiacs etc." or "you have no idea how important and groundbreaking Klaus Schulze's music was at the time". I don't like that approach because to me, music has to sound good and evoke the right kind of emotions.


I looked up :v, I guessed it was sarcastic or ironic. For any who may not know (which quite likely is no one at the forum), j/k equals just kidding.  I usually use ;) for j/k.  Like with other categories, there's avant prog I like and dislike and everyone to their own tastes.

I have seen such statements from people and is quite annoying; very arrogant.  I wish more people would talk about the qualities they appreciate in music without telling another how they should appreciate music.  What music sounds good and evokes the right emotions is in the ear of the behearer. I have had people on the more melodic rock side tell me that what I like is bad and just noise and no one should like it  just to try to annoy me in some cases).  I loathe such attitudes.  There are those who do seem to forget that music appreciation is subjective and no two people appreciate music in precisely the same way.  We all bring in our own psyches, experiences, associations.... I will appreciate certain music at one time and not appreciate it at another depending on mood and other factors. And some music I had to find the right stepping stones to appreciate, and with other music I lost interest over time. I do think one can appreciate the qualities of music without necessarily liking the music, but that's another thing. While I do think there is good and bad music (at least following certain principles) I wish less people talked about music as if it is good or bad and would be less apt to confuse personal preference with objective goodness.  I care about if music is good for me more than if it good writ large. Some music resonates with me particularly well at certain times and might not have resonated before being exposed to music that led me there and primed me.  Enjoy the journey, everyone's is different.  I don't want to be told what I "should" like and how I "should" appreciate it.




Edited by Logan - August 02 2024 at 08:29
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2024 at 13:45
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,

BTW Paul ... can you imagine Klaus Schulze from the start? Or Tangerine Dream?

Where's that insanity pill, Paul?
I don't need to imagine it, having already listened to the entire discography of Tangerine Dream and Klaus Schulze from beginning to end on my Tangerine Dream blog. Smile

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2024 at 14:08
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,

BTW Paul ... can you imagine Klaus Schulze from the start? Or Tangerine Dream?

Where's that insanity pill, Paul?
I don't need to imagine it, having already listened to the entire discography of Tangerine Dream and Klaus Schulze from beginning to end on my Tangerine Dream blog. Smile

WE ARE NOT WORTHY!!  Thumbs Up
And the grand total as of the last update in December '23 (Oh, what a night!), was 191 albums by Tangerine Dream and 63 albums by Klaus Schulze, although Tangerine Dream have probably released half a dozen more albums since then.  Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hugh Manatee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2024 at 22:37
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by Hugh Manatee Hugh Manatee wrote:

^I'm struggling to understand how dismissing his OPINION as merely an opinion would be a mistake. This is nothing more than an appeal to authority, and yes I may find a Wang Jianwe book and agree or disagree, but that would also be just my opinion.

A lot of people, including supposed art experts point to Picasso as some kind of master of art, but personally I don't get it.

This just illustrates my point.   You shouldn't dismiss it at all-- it's an appeal to expertise & background, not authority.   That you might think an artist good or bad is irrelevant because you're not an a lifelong art expert or a painter (I assume).   You don't have to get why Picasso is considered so important or a genius, but those who have the seasoned understanding and perception of art and art history do.   And frankly, though Picasso may not be among my very favorite painters, neither is Jackson Pollock but I get why he's so vital and gifted, and I see why he's considered to be so.   

Sometimes you have to step out of yourself to see the reality of a certain field, and it is always possible one day you may absolutely understand why Picasso is so great even though you might not have a print of his on your wall.



I may not be a lifelong art expert (whatever that means), but that does not make my opinion irrelevant, at least not to me. If only lifelong experts on anything were allowed an opinion on any given thing, then that would certainly narrow the field on who is allowed an opinion on what. 

You might be aware of Marla Olmstead a young child who was hailed by so called art experts as a prodigy with her works selling for large amounts only to have it revealed that her father was actually creating the works and passing them off as being by her, after which the prices for her work plummeted.

"The world of art criticism, despite its many proponents, also encounters opposition from individuals and groups who question the influence and relevance of critics within the art ecosystem. Here’s an exploration of the various reasons why some people oppose the role of art critics:

  • Subjective Evaluations

Critics’ assessments are often seen as subjective, based on personal preferences and biases. Opposers argue that this subjectivity can lead to unfair evaluations and may not always reflect the sentiments of a broader audience.

  • Over-Intellectualization

Some detractors believe that critics tend to over-intellectualize art, making it seem inaccessible or elitist. They argue that this can deter a wider audience from engaging with or appreciating art."

From: https://medium.com/@underratedshop/critics-in-the-art-world-940c16bbf37f

Art experts are good for determining the authenticity of a piece of art, but then there's Orson Welles' "F for Fake". 

As far as Jackson Pollock is concerned, I actually prefer his works to Picasso, if only because they are to me a brilliant representation of fractals. But hey, that's just my opinion.




Edited by Hugh Manatee - August 03 2024 at 00:17
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hugh Manatee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2024 at 22:43
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

Quote Bashing RIO/ Avant-Prog and Klaus Schulze is just plain stupid (j/k)
Someone's defensive here. :v
Anyway, the counter-argument from those groups I've mentioned is usually a gatekeepingy one such as: "the music is too complex for you and you're just too simple to understand the genius of Henry Cow, Univers Zero, Cardiacs etc." or "you have no idea how important and groundbreaking Klaus Schulze's music was at the time". I don't like that approach because to me, music has to sound good and evoke the right kind of emotions.


I looked up :v, I guessed it was sarcastic or ironic. For any who may not know (which quite likely is no one at the forum), j/k equals just kidding.  I usually use ;) for j/k.  Like with other categories, there's avant prog I like and dislike and everyone to their own tastes.

I have seen such statements from people and is quite annoying; very arrogant.  I wish more people would talk about the qualities they appreciate in music without telling another how they should appreciate music.  What music sounds good and evokes the right emotions is in the ear of the behearer. I have had people on the more melodic rock side tell me that what I like is bad and just noise and no one should like it  just to try to annoy me in some cases).  I loathe such attitudes.  There are those who do seem to forget that music appreciation is subjective and no two people appreciate music in precisely the same way.  We all bring in our own psyches, experiences, associations.... I will appreciate certain music at one time and not appreciate it at another depending on mood and other factors. And some music I had to find the right stepping stones to appreciate, and with other music I lost interest over time. I do think one can appreciate the qualities of music without necessarily liking the music, but that's another thing. While I do think there is good and bad music (at least following certain principles) I wish less people talked about music as if it is good or bad and would be less apt to confuse personal preference with objective goodness.  I care about if music is good for me more than if it good writ large. Some music resonates with me particularly well at certain times and might not have resonated before being exposed to music that led me there and primed me.  Enjoy the journey, everyone's is different.  I don't want to be told what I "should" like and how I "should" appreciate it.



I just wanted to repost this because I agree with these sentiments wholeheartedly and thought they deserve to be emphasised.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hugh Manatee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2024 at 22:52
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

I mentioned doctors as an aside when I was talking about appeals to authority as an example of something where I might appeal to expertise.  I'd sooner trust a neurologist's take on the state of my brain than, say, a urogolist who has only studied other parts of the anatomy, or a purrologist whose focus is cats, or a furologist named Bob Drake (sorry if this bearly makes sense).



I just wanted to make a comment on the expertise of doctors. 

If a doctor makes a diagnosis and the patient disagrees with that diagnosis the patient is free to seek a second OPINION.

This has happened to me, where one doctor said one thing and, on seeking a second opinion another doctor gave a different and correct diagnosis. If the first doctor had have given me a correct diagnosis it would have saved me a lot of pain and other unpleasant circumstances as a result of the misdiagnosis.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hrychu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 03 2024 at 01:57
Quote I looked up :v, I guessed it was sarcastic or ironic.
Yes. The :v signified sarcasm. Haha.
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

I mentioned doctors as an aside when I was talking about appeals to authority as an example of something where I might appeal to expertise.  I'd sooner trust a neurologist's take on the state of my brain than, say, a urogolist who has only studied other parts of the anatomy, or a purrologist whose focus is cats, or a furologist named Bob Drake (sorry if this bearly makes sense).


I can only speak for myself but the main reason I "became a furry" was because of the amazingly accepting and empathic furry/anthro artist community, many of which have great tastes in comics/cartoons and anthropomorphic character designs, that I can relate to. Another factor that played a huge role is the NSFW furry artists' approach to lewd art, and especially a certain niche subgenre that really resonates with me, but I'd rather not get into that are on this forum.

Edited by Hrychu - August 03 2024 at 02:06
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 03 2024 at 02:01
Originally posted by Hugh Manatee Hugh Manatee wrote:

You might be aware of Marla Olmstead, a young child who was hailed by so called art experts as a prodigy with her works selling for large amounts only to have it revealed that her father was actually creating the works and passing them off as being by her, after which the prices for her work plummeted.

The controversy itself is controversial, and the purported 'scam' is itself a bit of a scam, as it was never conclusive whether she was a gifted child who got a bit of guidance from her father, or whether the father created the paintings himself.

But this story, though interesting, does not address whether the opinions of seasoned veterans in a given field should or should not be taken as credible.   A bunch of people decided to pay a bunch of money for some artwork, and so they did.   Doesn't tell us much other than the art world is funny.   My favorite painter happens to be Mark Rothko who is often panned as talentless, a simplistic hack, and that "A child could paint that stuff!".   But that does not detract from Rothko's achievements, gifts, and breakthroughs as a modern painter.   

You can claim his work is simplistic & childlike but it doesn't mean anything other than non-experts don't know s h i t about modern art.













Edited by Atavachron - August 03 2024 at 02:03
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hrychu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 03 2024 at 02:25
Quote You can claim his work is simplistic & childlike but it doesn't mean anything other than non-experts don't know s h i t about modern art.
The problem with his works to me is not the fact they're "simplistic & childlike".

This is a real example of a "simplistic & childlike" artwork drawn by an actual child (me at age 10):

A child draws simple and low quality art, but they at least try to convey some information (which is as deep as a kid's understanding can go) and make an attempt at fulfilling their artistic vision. A typical child lacks skill and isn't a master at anatomy, but at least you can see the intentions behind it.

Mark Rothko's art is a different beast. The quintessential problem of Rothko's art is simply that it doesn't showcase any real artistic competence, knowledge or art fundamentals (perspective, geometry, anatomy). Well honestly, it doesn't convey any message either. It absolutely fails at communication. Those hipster experts are certainly just overanalyzing the art and reading too deep into it. The thing is, those "experts" are NOT ARTISTS THEMSELVES. I think that approach is really unfair towards truly skilled commercial pop culture artists. For example, my friend's artwork:

Okay, pop culture art doesn't bear any philosophical meaning. Well, it's the opposite - pure self-indulgent entertaining brain rot aimed at an undemanding casual viewer. But, the end product actually proves that the artist is skilled and knows the art fundamentals well. While, Mark Rothko's works, at least relatively objectively speaking, without the shoehorned in weight of extra hipster interpretations, does not.

Those 'avant garde art experts' give what might as well be overgloified trolling too much credit, and the way they do it is a terrible form of determining someone's genius.

Edited by Hrychu - August 03 2024 at 02:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 03 2024 at 02:51
^ You've just proven my point better than I ever could.

Thank you.

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hrychu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 03 2024 at 02:53
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ You've just proven my point better than I ever could.

Thank you.

What point? Read my post again. I edited it, so it's clearer.

Edited by Hrychu - August 03 2024 at 02:54
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hrychu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 03 2024 at 02:58
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ You've just proven my point better than I ever could.
So... that means you do agree with me for once? Wonderful! I appreciate people who showcase humbleness and self-critique.

And to everybody reading this, Im not saying that it's a bad thing. Anyone who admits to their ignorace about a certain topic, has an opportunity to get educated

Anyway, to me, great art should ALWAYS be a blend of meaning and appeal. Artistic skill isn't 'required' for one to be a master but it helps sell that artist as someone who knows what they're doing.

Edited by Hrychu - August 03 2024 at 03:08
“On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.”
— Ernest Vong
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hrychu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 03 2024 at 03:26
Well, on the other hand, Mark Rothko's works are precisely targeted at the hipster experts who are not artists. Those works tick all the right boxes. And if you look at Rothko that way, he was a genius after all. It takes tremendous skill in salesmanship and psychological manipulation to pass off 'a big pile of nothing' as a mastepiece to a delusional ignorant who claims to be an expert 👍

Edited by Hrychu - August 03 2024 at 03:26
“On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.”
— Ernest Vong
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