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Prog and Punk |
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OfTheWorld 
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Joined: July 08 2024 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 2 |
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 Topic: Prog and PunkPosted: July 08 2024 at 03:18 |
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Would you agree or disagree that punk and prog have more similarities than differences in terms of going against the grain of traditional culture and music in general?
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Hrychu
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Joined: November 03 2013 Location: poland? Status: Offline Points: 5364 |
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Posted: July 08 2024 at 03:29 |
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So does hip-hop.
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On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.
Ernest Vong |
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Lewian
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Joined: August 09 2015 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 14739 |
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Posted: July 08 2024 at 06:26 |
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Wouldn't any innovation "go against the grain" initially?
Generally the problem with such questions is that you can't quantify them, so it's not really clear what "more" means. Some things are similar some quite different, but that's not a very exciting answer, is it?
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AFlowerKingCrimson
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Joined: October 02 2016 Location: Philly burbs Status: Online Points: 18278 |
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Posted: July 08 2024 at 07:25 |
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They are both underground in the sense that the purist forms of both genres aren't mainstream (with few exceptions). Other than that I don't really see any similarities.
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Saperlipopette!
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Joined: December 20 2010 Location: Tomorrowland Status: Offline Points: 11666 |
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Posted: July 08 2024 at 08:29 |
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Saperlipopette!
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Joined: December 20 2010 Location: Tomorrowland Status: Offline Points: 11666 |
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Posted: July 09 2024 at 01:10 |
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-I'm noticing you're new here: as this is posted in the Topics not related to music-section, I guess it has far less visibility than it could have had. This is very much related to both music and Prog, so it wouldn't have been wrong to post in one of the Progressive Music Lounges (one of the two on the top of the page).
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moshkito
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Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17517 |
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Posted: July 09 2024 at 06:34 |
Hi, I think that "progressive" and a lot of music around had gotten the opinion that a lot of it was done by folks that were musically educated, and they were able to create works that displayed that well. FOR ME, the punk scene was a direct response to the "educated" side of the music, REMEMBER that is was notes as a lot of "art music" and that kinda takes it away from "the streets" and the folks that do not have the education but have enough gumption to pluck one note (so to speak) long enough to make a song. Honestly, I think that punk was a media creation that was handled by the record companies, because the really good acts were all taken up and finding new ones was difficult ... but then, they weren't looking, were they? We're finding more stuff now that was not represented THEN. And you and I know that the record companies went for the money quickly before it dried up! Thus, the likelihood, THEN, that someone would post a review saying how good it was, would likely show up ... but punk had its points, and attitude was an important one, that I think about on the notion of "song" and "lyrics" ... that had become the "thing" then since this was a very clear distinction. I don't think that most punk musicians were musically illiterate, I really doubt that, although in Penelope Spheris specials, there are moments in the music that suggests it ... or at the very least it was very simplified, so they could play it and get some recognition ... which many of them did get, thanks to the media end up saying that many of the punk works were good, and better than the overblown progressive material. MIND YOU, that it was not the top level of progressive that was being attacked, though ELP got a lot of flack, but the many other bands of the 2nd tier that were also putting out a lot of material that might have been thought of as not as good, but in the end, 40/50 years later, their musicianship is as good as that of the top tier. It's a difficult discussion any way we look at it, since the media is the bunch of folks that decided that A was bad, and B was good'er and C was neat and clever. Mostly because some top bands just did not have the time to be interviewed by every Joe, Tom, Dick and Harry out there ... and at that point the lower level groups have a very good chance. BUT, we're at fault as well ... by not trashing some reviewers for their comments ... for example, one idiot said that Tangerine Dream sounded like washing machine music ... and you now know that person had obviously never heard washing machines, or Tangerine Dream for that matter ... and he should have been removed from his job as a reviewer, since that person, obviously did not listen to music ... I'm guessing they were listening to punk by that time!
Edited by moshkito - July 09 2024 at 18:34 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Logan
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Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 35884 |
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Posted: July 09 2024 at 09:45 |
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Please avoid insulting people like that, especially if they are not around to defend themselves (he left the site ages ago). That review from Greenback (at least use people's usernames or real names if you know them if you're going to call them out) came from early 2005, and the standards were not good then. It was later that he was a made a collab, and there were some others who started off very poor but improved.. Many people started off poor, and okay, Zeit was out of his wheelhouse (he was more into the melodic prog side, hard rock, Neo-Prog than the more experimental side). Anyway, I have not seen him at the forum for a very long time, and he was never one of my preferred reviewers but then we have very different tastes. That said, to me his Phaedra write-up is one of my favourites because it is so absurd, and it is a funny example from the early days of the site when there were not the standards found later. Is it an "idiotic" review? One could phrase it like that. Silly? Yes. Entertaining? I think so. Useful? Not really. Good? No. Should have been removed? Could be? But I don't like people being called idiots like this, nor saying that people should have been removed for an early review, retroactively in essence, before becoming a collab when there were not the standards we expected later. One might argue that he should never been a collab but then you probably are not aware of what work he has done for the site to help out. I have posted this "review" (more like some performance piece) a few times as an absurd one that I love. "What a shame!
The music consists in 2-3 humming refrigerators at the same time, plus a portative fan that
turns back and forth to make the anyway inexistent rhythm, and finally a coming cluster of
threatening killer bees!
There are tons of albums better than this one to describe the desolation once you go alone
on Mars!
The album is even not minimalist!" I can't tell if he listened to or not from that, but often with such ones people did not give a listen all the way through, and sometimes people just heard the music in the background somewhere. It's not the product of an active listener, imo. It's one of those bad commentaries I love from the early reviewing days of this site. At least one person tried to go back and rewrite their early reviews for being so poor. |
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Hrychu
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Joined: November 03 2013 Location: poland? Status: Offline Points: 5364 |
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Posted: July 09 2024 at 10:47 |
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Saying that Tangerine Dream sounds like washing machine noise is giving them too much credit! 🤣 A better description would be something like an E-MU Rompler set to a generic "far east pad" patch, hooked up to a Washing Machine, where each note is triggered by the rotation of the drum. And if we're talking about the early era (Rubycon, Stratofear), then it's basically washing machine noise with tons of tape echo and spring reverb. ;)
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On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.
Ernest Vong |
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Logan
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Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 35884 |
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Posted: July 09 2024 at 11:00 |
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Actually, one of the reasons I like that Greenback commentary is not just because it's absurd, but because I quite get where he's coming from. I don't take it literally. Anyway, some Tangerine Dream is going to be more palatable to some tastes than others. Zeit would not be an easy album to many. I first heard Phaedra as a teen and it wasn't until much later that I found myself loving the album. I used to prefer every pre-Pheadra album to those that came after, and now I appreciate lots of TD. It was the debut that many rate lowly that got me into Tangerine Dream. Loved it.
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moshkito
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Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17517 |
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Posted: July 09 2024 at 18:29 |
Hi, I was not aware that this was about someone else and a reviewer here on PA. I might have a joke about it, but it is not meant anymore than a sock full of custard thrown at the wall for the sound effect! (Goon joke!) As a reviewer for foreign film, I have gotten some feedback, and some folks didn't like this or that ... it comes with the territory, however, there is no real need for a response more often than not. I, in fact, even had to correct a couple of reviews, but the handful of these never got any further than the compliments I got from some of my reviews being used on another Film Festival. I was not, in any way shape of form, trying to insult anyone, although I think that TD review is out of line and then some ... but the punk folks perhaps needed more words in the press, other than the folks that were disliking the "art music" and what became known as "progressive". I think there were a lot of folks that reviewed things that were around, going back to the Fido days and the various locations where the music was discussed in the 90's, which were very few. None of them that I can remember, made some really poor choice of words as a "review" ... the TD reference was in Melody Maker, for example, in its heyday.
Edited by moshkito - July 09 2024 at 18:29 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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OfTheWorld wrote: