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Lewian
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 09 2015
Location: Italy
Status: Online
Points: 14722
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Posted: April 09 2024 at 15:26 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
^ Yes, it was my point, going further than Ioannidis does. And it's just a hypothesis.
Your main point there is intriguing, and difficult to unwrap since it's actually several independent arguments "against" science. Ultimately, for real world applications, we are accepting scientific theories as valid if their practical application works, which is a combination of verifying the predictions following from the theory and failing to falsify it. You can argue that that is not good enough, I would disagree. Maybe we can agree on that? |
I'm fine with the scientific method actually, and with using scientific results. But I also want to keep an open mind. We can use science without having to believe its claims about reality 100%. Whether something works for some kind of purpose is a different issue from whether the statements about objective reality are true that may have inspired the construction of something that works. We don't have to dismiss science in order to keep a healthy scepticism. But if somebody comes up with something surprising, it isn't enough to cite a scientific paper to disprove them.
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65250
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Posted: April 09 2024 at 15:31 |
CosmicVibration wrote:
yea, we are getting way off topic. Just one more point and i'll leave it at that.
When science plays the reduction game it boils down everything in existence to only 2 components. They are:
1- Energy 2- Consciousness
According to science that's it, that's all that exists in creation. Metaphysics reduces it even further | Very little of this is off topic: This is how threads tend to evolve: I've seen far worse off-topic episodes: Your science comment is just as tangential as any other post.
Edited by Atavachron - April 09 2024 at 15:33
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
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Points: 21151
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Posted: April 09 2024 at 15:36 |
Lewian wrote:
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
^ Yes, it was my point, going further than Ioannidis does. And it's just a hypothesis.
Your main point there is intriguing, and difficult to unwrap since it's actually several independent arguments "against" science. Ultimately, for real world applications, we are accepting scientific theories as valid if their practical application works, which is a combination of verifying the predictions following from the theory and failing to falsify it. You can argue that that is not good enough, I would disagree. Maybe we can agree on that? |
I'm fine with the scientific method actually, and with using scientific results. But I also want to keep an open mind. We can use science without having to believe its claims about reality 100%. Whether something works for some kind of purpose is a different issue from whether the statements about objective reality are true that may have inspired the construction of something that works. We don't have to dismiss science in order to keep a healthy scepticism. But if somebody comes up with something surprising, it isn't enough to cite a scientific paper to disprove them. |
What do you think about the Poetic Naturalism lecture that I posted a few pages back? There's also Eric Weinstein, very provocative regarding questionable science (especially string theory). I'd say that if somebody claims to have come up with something surprising, ask them how we (you, I) can replicate it. Only then does it start to get interesting (since, as you also said, anyone can make a claim and cite whatever papers to "prove" it).
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
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Points: 21151
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Posted: April 09 2024 at 15:40 |
Lewian wrote:
If you want full freedom of speech, you've got to allow it all. And you've got to allow everyone to disagree with all of it. Now in fact I agree with Hugh Manatee that there is nowhere completely free speech, and chances are we don't want that. There are insults, hate speech, racism, you name it. Words are not innocent. And every democracy has to ask itself, do we grant full freedom to our enemies? Do we allow Holocaust denial for example? Are we fine with manipulators flooding the internet with their dross and using tolerance and freedom to their advantage? This regards both hate speech and misrepresentation of facts. And it's a fine line to tread as free speech and exchange should be a core value of democracy. |
That's exactly right. You can limit illegal stuff like libel and slander, but everything else should be permissible - otherwise someone needs to draw an arbitrary line and things get murky.
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Lewian
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 09 2015
Location: Italy
Status: Online
Points: 14722
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Posted: April 09 2024 at 16:22 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
What do you think about the Poetic Naturalism lecture that I posted a few pages back? |
I liked that you posted it and started watching it but haven't found the time to finish it. I'll probably do that at some point.
Edited by Lewian - April 09 2024 at 16:23
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Lewian
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 09 2015
Location: Italy
Status: Online
Points: 14722
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Posted: April 10 2024 at 04:52 |
Lewian wrote:
I'm fine with the scientific method actually, and with using scientific results. But I also want to keep an open mind. We can use science without having to believe its claims about reality 100%. Whether something works for some kind of purpose is a different issue from whether the statements about objective reality are true that may have inspired the construction of something that works. We don't have to dismiss science in order to keep a healthy scepticism. But if somebody comes up with something surprising, it isn't enough to cite a scientific paper to disprove them. |
I'd like to add to this that my main point is that science in itself is (like many things) not black or white. Criticising science doesn't need to mean being against it. As I wrote, I'm fine with what is often presented as "scientific method", but then there are scientific values that are to some extent idealistic, often neglected in science itself, and often sidelined by other factors. Science is supposed to be objective and free of personal (or institutional) interests, but it rather obviously isn't. There are errors in science, manipulation, salesmanship, bias by largely unconscious psychological and social processes, and outright cheating. Although experts in a certain field can detect some of this, the degree of specialisation and on the other hand the degree of interaction are so high that nobody can check everything that is involved in any scientific statement of enough sophistication. Also there is lots of controversy and disagreement, and there has to be according to scientific values. The chance is not so low if you find a certain scientific paper claiming X you can find another one that claims the opposite, and you can't find the error in either (or you can find errors in both).
But then many of those who use this to dismiss science in general or any specific scientific statement don't have anything better on offer - they rely on sources for which there is no reason that they are less affected by all the issues that affect science. In fact what I value about science is not that it comes up with true and reliable results (sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't, and in many cases we can't know), but that it provides a space and an approach, some kind of moderation, for letting different views clash and in some cases for deciding between them (or occasionally for figuring out that some things cannot be decided in an objective and reliable manner; and occasionally reverting an earlier decision). And much of the most enlightening criticism of science comes from within science (or from philosophers associated with scientific institutions).
So I'm not going to trust science and I'm not going to trust antiscience. And although I decide to hold some views, I will not make an ultimate choice what to believe and what not to believe, because going into the details of whatever reveals complexities and issues, and whatever side I decide to stand on, I want to understand the issues and the counterarguments. And I know that normally, if I understand the counterarguments well enough, they (or rather the best of them) cannot be easily dismissed, yet this doesn't mean the other side is right or overall better.
With democracy it's similar. The shortcomings of democracy are obvious and serious - this concerns the practice of existing countries that sail under the democracy flag in the first place, but to some extent also the ideals of democracy and freedom. These issues are not to be dismissed and we have to deal with them. This doesn't mean I should trust somebody who says that democracy is actually worthless and only a charade, and the real truth is a world government that controls all of us gullible sheep or whatnot (although I'm happy about the fact that in a democracy they can say this and I can check their arguments).
Edited by Lewian - April 10 2024 at 04:55
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20604
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Posted: April 10 2024 at 05:40 |
Lewian wrote:
Lewian wrote:
I'm fine with the scientific method actually, and with using scientific results. But I also want to keep an open mind. We can use science without having to believe its claims about reality 100%. Whether something works for some kind of purpose is a different issue from whether the statements about objective reality are true that may have inspired the construction of something that works. We don't have to dismiss science in order to keep a healthy scepticism. But if somebody comes up with something surprising, it isn't enough to cite a scientific paper to disprove them. |
I'd like to add to this that my main point is that science in itself is (like many things) not black or white. Criticising science doesn't need to mean being against it. As I wrote, I'm fine with what is often presented as "scientific method", but then there are scientific values that are to some extent idealistic, often neglected in science itself, and often sidelined by other factors. Science is supposed to be objective and free of personal (or institutional) interests, but it rather obviously isn't. There are errors in science, manipulation, salesmanship, bias by largely unconscious psychological and social processes, and outright cheating. Although experts in a certain field can detect some of this, the degree of specialisation and on the other hand the degree of interaction are so high that nobody can check everything that is involved in any scientific statement of enough sophistication. Also there is lots of controversy and disagreement, and there has to be according to scientific values. The chance is not so low if you find a certain scientific paper claiming X you can find another one that claims the opposite, and you can't find the error in either (or you can find errors in both).
But then many of those who use this to dismiss science in general or any specific scientific statement don't have anything better on offer - they rely on sources for which there is no reason that they are less affected by all the issues that affect science. In fact what I value about science is not that it comes up with true and reliable results (sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't, and in many cases we can't know), but that it provides a space and an approach, some kind of moderation, for letting different views clash and in some cases for deciding between them (or occasionally for figuring out that some things cannot be decided in an objective and reliable manner; and occasionally reverting an earlier decision). And much of the most enlightening criticism of science comes from within science (or from philosophers associated with scientific institutions).
So I'm not going to trust science and I'm not going to trust antiscience. And although I decide to hold some views, I will not make an ultimate choice what to believe and what not to believe, because going into the details of whatever reveals complexities and issues, and whatever side I decide to stand on, I want to understand the issues and the counterarguments. And I know that normally, if I understand the counterarguments well enough, they (or rather the best of them) cannot be easily dismissed, yet this doesn't mean the other side is right or overall better.
With democracy it's similar. The shortcomings of democracy are obvious and serious - this concerns the practice of existing countries that sail under the democracy flag in the first place, but to some extent also the ideals of democracy and freedom. These issues are not to be dismissed and we have to deal with them. This doesn't mean I should trust somebody who says that democracy is actually worthless and only a charade, and the real truth is a world government that controls all of us gullible sheep or whatnot (although I'm happy about the fact that in a democracy they can say this and I can check their arguments).
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This is a fantastic overview of the pros and cons of democracy as well as of science. A healthy skepticism of any form of government is sound and rational thinking. I hope that everyone reads this post.
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This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
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Hugh Manatee
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 07 2021
Location: The Barricades
Status: Offline
Points: 1587
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Posted: April 10 2024 at 21:29 |
There is a difference between cynicism, scepticism, critical thinking and being a contrarian. In a democracy all are given an equal right to express their opinion.
Words are important. We use words to help define the reality we perceive; and so the battle for control of the meaning of words becomes ever more important and heated until it gets to the point where words lose their meaning altogether and nothing really means anything, until you can make it all mean whatever you want it to mean.
Everyone free to live in their own chosen reality.
Ah democracy.
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I should have been a pair of ragged claws Scuttling across the floors of uncertain seas
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20604
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Posted: April 11 2024 at 05:08 |
Hugh Manatee wrote:
There is a difference between cynicism, scepticism, critical thinking and being a contrarian. In a democracy all are given an equal right to express their opinion.
Words are important. We use words to help define the reality we perceive; and so the battle for control of the meaning of words becomes ever more important and heated until it gets to the point where words lose their meaning altogether and nothing really means anything, until you can make it all mean whatever you want it to mean.
Everyone free to live in their own chosen reality.
Ah democracy.
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I can't help help but thinking that this thread veers to a bit too much in either semantics or philosophical discussions regarding the language we use to define our feelings on this subject. It need not be so complicated as most is readily comprehensible by the public at large. In other words, most know what a lie is. It is the acceptance or denial of that lie that is the ultimate problem and threat to democracy.
Edited by SteveG - April 11 2024 at 05:09
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This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
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MortSahlFan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 01 2018
Location: US
Status: Offline
Points: 2941
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Posted: April 11 2024 at 06:23 |
"Democracy"
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https://www.youtube.com/c/LoyalOpposition
https://www.scribd.com/document/382737647/MortSahlFan-Song-List
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21151
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Posted: April 11 2024 at 06:59 |
^ Yes ... to some it means that the people are in power, to others it means that there are public, secret elections, to yet others it means freedom of speech above all else. Makes it hard to discuss whether it's "teetering"
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20240
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Posted: April 11 2024 at 07:10 |
SteveG wrote:
I can't help help but thinking that this thread veers to a bit too much in either semantics or philosophical discussions regarding the language we use to define our feelings on this subject. It need not be so complicated as most is readily comprehensible by the public at large. In other words, most know what a lie is. It is the acceptance or denial of that lie that is the ultimate problem and threat to democracy.
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this coming from someone who claims in his sig:
This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State
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let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20604
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Posted: April 11 2024 at 07:32 |
Sean Trane wrote:
SteveG wrote:
I can't help help but thinking that this thread veers to a bit too much in either semantics or philosophical discussions regarding the language we use to define our feelings on this subject. It need not be so complicated as most is readily comprehensible by the public at large. In other words, most know what a lie is. It is the acceptance or denial of that lie that is the ultimate problem and threat to democracy.
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this coming from someone who claims in his sig:
This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State
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It's only said in jest to mock those on right that believe this conspiracy. And to annoy them.
Edited by SteveG - April 11 2024 at 07:34
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This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
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Points: 21151
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Posted: April 11 2024 at 07:37 |
^ Do you think that the people the US owe $35,000,000,000,000 to have a considerable influence on political decisions?
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20604
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Posted: April 11 2024 at 08:12 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
^ Do you think that the people the US owe $35,000,000,000,000 to have a considerable influence on political decisions? |
As Trump added greatly to that total, I can only say that his constituents who voted him in are responsible.
Edited by SteveG - April 11 2024 at 08:12
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This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: April 11 2024 at 08:28 |
^ Thanks for the non-answer.
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MikeEnRegalia
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Joined: April 22 2005
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Posted: April 11 2024 at 08:29 |
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20240
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Posted: April 11 2024 at 09:17 |
SteveG wrote:
Sean Trane wrote:
SteveG wrote:
I can't help help but thinking that this thread veers to a bit too much in either semantics or philosophical discussions regarding the language we use to define our feelings on this subject. It need not be so complicated as most is readily comprehensible by the public at large. In other words, most know what a lie is. It is the acceptance or denial of that lie that is the ultimate problem and threat to democracy.
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this coming from someone who claims in his sig:
This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State
| It's only said in jest to mock those on right that believe this conspiracy. And to annoy them.
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oh, I understand the irony alright and am not annoyed
But in this case (the last two sentences of your post), it's more than an oxymoron and a pleonasm in the same post, ultimately ruining whatever's left of your credibility .
But thanks for specifying your main reason to be on the forum.
Edited by Sean Trane - April 11 2024 at 09:18
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let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
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Posted: April 11 2024 at 09:30 |
^
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20604
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Posted: April 11 2024 at 09:33 |
Sean Trane wrote:
SteveG wrote:
Sean Trane wrote:
SteveG wrote:
I can't help help but thinking that this thread veers to a bit too much in either semantics or philosophical discussions regarding the language we use to define our feelings on this subject. It need not be so complicated as most is readily comprehensible by the public at large. In other words, most know what a lie is. It is the acceptance or denial of that lie that is the ultimate problem and threat to democracy.
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this coming from someone who claims in his sig:
This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State
| It's only said in jest to mock those on right that believe this conspiracy. And to annoy them.
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oh, I understand the irony alright and am not annoyed
But in this case (the last two sentences of your post), it's more than an oxymoron and a pleonasm in the same post, ultimately ruining whatever's left of your credibility .
But thanks for specifying your main reason to be on the forum.
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Sean, it's good to see that some things never change. You're still an ass who should confine himself to his right wing, anti Nato, Pro Putin and Ukraine bashing propaganda sites. At least they enjoy your lack of wit, having little of it themselves.
Edited by SteveG - April 11 2024 at 09:34
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This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
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