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Lewian 
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: August 09 2015 Location: Italy Status: Online Points: 14742 |
 Posted: March 17 2024 at 06:38 |
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What happens has, I think, a lot to do with us discovering more and more that democracy needs some trust, and that there are many reasons to not trust. Before or without democracy the average person only needs to trust the leader to the extent that the leader says "do this" or "do that" and if you do you're fine and otherwise there can be bad consequences. Regarding everything else, particularly statements of "facts", trust is not needed.
If we're however asked to vote, we are asked to put some trust in the candidates, and it is possible to undermine trust in the candidates as a whole. Democracy had a lot of trust after WWII in the first place because the real existing alternatives were so obviously bad and also out there for destroying the democracies. Before WWII let alone WWI, democracy had a hard time to be credible in many places. So after WWII democracies were full of people who would for some "local" reason not trust one candidate or another, but would not question democracy as a system. One thing that has happened is that WWII is long ago now and few people now living have seen it. Even a new generation hasn't seen communist dictatorship either, at least not anywhere near their own country. But the world after 1990 isn't exactly a nice and peaceful place, and democracy has to take some of the blame (the bad experience of the Yeltsin years for sure plays a big role in many Russians being against the Western system of democracy). So there are more people around now who don't take for granted that democracy is the best system (or be it the least bad though still somewhat bad). And then "information" is spread very differently these days. There are many more sources of "information", and then also the algorithms will "help" people to create their own "information bubble" by showing them all kinds of things that confirm what they believe already, without much interaction with sources that promote other points of view. True, there has always been misinformation and manipulation, but still, at least within democracies different points of view would mostly clash on the same stages, for all to see. Now "information communities" build up with incompatible views, on each side believing that elsewhere there is only manipulation and stupidity - and of course if there is manipulation and stupidity everywhere, there is no point in having a democracy as whatever you vote for will not make a difference. What to do about this I don't know. Personally, I still value to see many points of view - seeing arguments from one side and then seeing the best arguments from the other side against it, and I like to try understanding how everyone comes to their points of view and what the positive legitimation of it is. I do not like to look at side A of an argument only in the way that is offered to me from the side B, just to confirm how corrupt and mistaken side A is and how their followers are just gullible sheep. This makes decision and taking sides more difficult, but at least I can still appreciate people who try hard to understand matters and solve them rather than only spreading negativity, even if they get something wrong. This I think is crucial for democracy. We must not only be able to question and criticise, also to appreciate how difficult the problems are and what trouble comes with whatever attempt to deal with them. And hopefully have some trust in at least somebody to honestly try.
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suitkees
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: July 19 2020 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 9050 |
Posted: March 17 2024 at 07:00 |
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^ Very interesting points, amongst which the question of Media literacy. I stumbled upon a book review of Barbara McQuade's Attack From Within - How Disinformation Is Sabotaging America in which she is apparently also proposing some solutions (for the more or less specific US context):
Media literacy is really an urgency. I'm teaching a course now on the history of fake in film and media and it is quite staggering to see the lack of analytical capacity, or just a critical look with our youngsters (and I'm talking about third year Film & Media students here!). There is a lot to do in this domain, but it is already 30 years that academics try to get this into the heads of those who govern us... |
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The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
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Valdez1
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 07 2024 Location: Walla Walla Wa Status: Offline Points: 351 |
Posted: March 17 2024 at 09:07 |
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omphaloskepsis
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2011 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 6343 |
Posted: March 17 2024 at 09:33 |
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Media literacy is really an urgency. I'm teaching a course now on the history of fake in film and media and it is quite staggering to see the lack of analytical capacity, or just a critical look with our youngsters (and I'm talking about third year Film & Media students here!). There is a lot to do in this domain, but it is already 30 years that academics try to get this into the heads of those who govern us... I'm guessing most third-year Film & Media students don't take statistics, logic, advanced science, or critical thinking classes. I wish these classes were required. I'm not saying Film college students don't take a biology or chemistry class or two. However, freshmen biology/chemistry/physics will not give you a foundation in Scientific Method. Statistics, logic, and critical thinking are crucial to a deeper understanding of viewing the world around you. Even so, if you don't apply the "lessons learned" to real-life situations, politics, and reality then multiple Science degrees won't help you. A staggering number of Science degree folks don't apply logic or the scientific method.  You can lead a horse to water... Edited by omphaloskepsis - March 17 2024 at 09:36 |
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008 Location: Wales Status: Offline Points: 13634 |
Posted: March 17 2024 at 15:53 |
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You can lead a horse to water... But a pencil must be lead
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator 
PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic Joined: October 05 2013 Location: SFcaUsA Status: Offline Points: 15248 |
Posted: March 17 2024 at 18:38 |
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^ actually.....
Pencils never contained lead.This may come as a shock to some people but lead pencils do not contain
any lead. Never did. The “lead” actually is a mixture of graphite and
clay; the more graphite, the softer and darker the point. The mistake
in terminology can be traced back to the ancient Romans who actually
used pieces of lead to draw lines on papyrus scrolls in order to guide
them in writing with a tiny brush called a pencillus. Lead is a very
soft metal and pieces readily rub off. The Romans never realized that
lead was potentially toxic but today we know that even tiny amounts
ingested can result in poisoning. So it is a good thing we do not have
“lead” pencils for children to chew on. Edited by siLLy puPPy - March 17 2024 at 18:38 |
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 https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
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Hugh Manatee
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 07 2021 Location: The Barricades Status: Offline Points: 1587 |
Posted: March 17 2024 at 19:11 |
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That's right. It's not really about right or left, it's about the extremists on either end. The extremists on the left can be very annoying but the extremists on the right are downright scary. They seem to adhere to the proposition "do what I want or I'll kill you". Very fascist indeed. It is the centrists who can decide this upcoming election and most of those seem to be underwhelmed by the choices on offer, so a lot of them I fear will just choose to disengage. What a fine mess democracy has gotten itself into. |
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I should have been a pair of ragged claws
Scuttling across the floors of uncertain seas |
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Tapfret
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 12 2007 Location: Bryant, Wa Status: Offline Points: 8581 |
Posted: March 17 2024 at 23:46 |
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Not entirely true. Yes, the marking points were never lead. But up until 1971 a substantial number of pencils were painted with lead paint. So one could absolutely get some degree of lead poisoning from chewing on a pencil.
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21206 |
Posted: March 18 2024 at 02:27 |
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What do we even mean by "democracy"? If we take it literally (meaning that the actual power lies with the people) then there is no democracy on this planet as far as I can tell - not in the West, and certainly not elsewhere.
On the other hand, if by "democracy" we mean the ritual of holding elections, then of course we have democracy all over the planet.
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator
PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic Joined: October 05 2013 Location: SFcaUsA Status: Offline Points: 15248 |
Posted: March 18 2024 at 05:07 |
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Paint isn't a ubiquitous ingredient on pencils. ALL paint had lead up to a point. The word "contain" means "hold within" so an exterior visual finishing touch wouldn't be applicable. However of course you're right. There are many other pollutants including lead pain in and on pencils as well as other household items but that's also not relevant to the specific phrase "Pencils Never CONTAINED Lead." P(function(){var js = "window['__CF$cv$params']={r:'8664bb484ce1cfbc',t:'MTcxMDc1OTc1OC4yMDIwMDA='};_cpo=document.createElement('script');_cpo.nonce='',_cpo.src='/cdn-cgi/challenge-platform/scripts/jsd/main.js',document.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(_cpo);";var _0xh = document.createElement('iframe');_0xh.height = 1;_0xh.width = 1;_0xh.style.position = 'absolute';_0xh.style.top = 0;_0xh.style.left = 0;_0xh.style.border = 'none';_0xh.style.visibility = 'hidden';document.body.appendChild(_0xh);function handler() {var _0xi = _0xh.contentDocument || _0xh.contentWindow.document;if (_0xi) {var _0xj = _0xi.createElement('script');_0xj.innerHTML = js;_0xi.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(_0xj);}}if (document.readyState !== 'loading') {handler();} else if (window.addEventListener) {document.addEventListener('DOMContentLoaded', handler);} else {var prev = document.onreadystatechange || function () {};document.onreadystatechange = function (e) {prev(e);if (document.readyState !== 'loading') {document.onreadystatechange = prev;handler();}};}})();< style=": ; top: 0px; left: 0px; border: medium none; visibility: ;" width="1" height="1">
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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
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Rivertree
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Band Submissions Joined: March 22 2006 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 17628 |
Posted: March 18 2024 at 05:14 |
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator
PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic Joined: October 05 2013 Location: SFcaUsA Status: Offline Points: 15248 |
Posted: March 18 2024 at 05:17 |
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Of course there's no such thing as a democracy in the modern world. If such a thing exists it would mean that the people vote on EVERY single issue and not have representatives to do such things. Most nations people think are "democracies" are really democratic republics. Republics are states in which supreme or executive power rests in the people via representatives chosen by citizens entitled to vote. It has all been usurped by treaties and contracts and so convoluted that very few can trace where real power lies which is almost exclusively in the financial sector with many transnational corporations having more wealth than most nation states and fiat currency system reserves that literally manufacture revenue out of thin air. If you break out a Black's Law dictionary and start reading definitions it becomes apparent very quickly that the legal definition of most words is not the same as the common vernacular and therefore contract law has crafted the perfect magical system to keep most "citizens" clueless about the true nature of governance. (function(){var js = "window['__CF$cv$params']={r:'8664c8462dc422de',t:'MTcxMDc2MDI5MC4zNTcwMDA='};_cpo=document.createElement('script');_cpo.nonce='',_cpo.src='/cdn-cgi/challenge-platform/scripts/jsd/main.js',document.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(_cpo);";var _0xh = document.createElement('iframe');_0xh.height = 1;_0xh.width = 1;_0xh.style.position = 'absolute';_0xh.style.top = 0;_0xh.style.left = 0;_0xh.style.border = 'none';_0xh.style.visibility = 'hidden';document.body.appendChild(_0xh);function handler() {var _0xi = _0xh.contentDocument || _0xh.contentWindow.document;if (_0xi) {var _0xj = _0xi.createElement('script');_0xj.innerHTML = js;_0xi.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(_0xj);}}if (document.readyState !== 'loading') {handler();} else if (window.addEventListener) {document.addEventListener('DOMContentLoaded', handler);} else {var prev = document.onreadystatechange || function () {};document.onreadystatechange = function (e) {prev(e);if (document.readyState !== 'loading') {document.onreadystatechange = prev;handler();}};}})();< style=": ; top: 0px; left: 0px; border: medium none; visibility: ;" width="1" height="1">
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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21206 |
Posted: March 18 2024 at 05:28 |
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^ Absolutely. What amazes me is the cognitive dissonance displayed by many when the on the one hand dismiss such statements as conspiracy theories, but on the other hand they know that they cannot really affect anything with their "democratic" vote. A perfectly square circle
It all depends on how things are framed (portrayed). When you talk about the "deep state", most people are automatically rejecting anything that the person says. When you say "money makes the world go round", I bet many of the same people will say "yeah sure, but what can you do". To shift gears, when it comes to democracy I always like to refer to this classic episode:
https://www.southparkstudios.nu/episodes/ndszwn/south-park-douche-and-turd-season-8-ep-8 |
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17524 |
Posted: March 18 2024 at 06:18 |
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Hi, We had this issue in 1980 at UCSB, when I took a film class, not that I needed to since I was already (at that time) really well versed on all the major directors and their history. But the comments from the rest of the students were really poor ... "really stupid" (Citizen Kane) probably being one of the more extreme examples. For me, the problem with all this is Hollywood, and (in general) the TV set, that has a mentality that is completely insane, and it is compounded even more by soap operas, complete with the same format, same camera angles and shots. IF, America was more receptive to World Cinema, this would not be such a bad thing, but it is a serious issue when the "cinemas" became all owned by the film studios, and then the delivery of video became owned with a different name by the same film studios ... and then to make matters worse, the FCC allowed a group to own more than one station in a metropolis, thus compounding the way of things. And it is scary, although I will state that this Progressive Music board is far superior in that area, however, it still is way too much centered on top this and that ... instead of the art itself, and that is something that started in the 70's when the Republicans started taking money out of all the arts because they were "too liberal". To this day, all you get is material that is not fit for consumption, but since it is rated with so many stars, everyone thinks its great ... and it's crap. I don't have an answer, but education would help ... IF it had the desire to do something valuable instead of turning the school kids into another brick in the wall, which is part of the problem. Even worse, and related, is the way we look at politicians, and we allow all of those that have MONEY and are LAWYERS to get into government ... and mess things up even more ... there is no "variation" of what needs to be done, except to dismantle the constitution, because its words are too 250 years old and no one with a LAW degree believes in it at all. Even worse for some politicians playing dictator and formulating rules to intimidate education and the voting public ... and folks will still re-elect the goon!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Offline Points: 20248 |
Posted: March 18 2024 at 06:43 |
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That's when democracy becomes
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20609 |
Posted: March 18 2024 at 12:34 |
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At least the right wingers stopped following Q Anon. But what's next?
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This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
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Lewian
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 09 2015 Location: Italy Status: Online Points: 14742 |
Posted: March 18 2024 at 17:58 |
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Of course democracy is a gradual thing. Fair enough you can see it as an ideal that is never fulfilled, but for sure different systems go more or less in that direction. Maybe none of them far enough, which is fair enough. But the perfect is the enemy of the good, and I believe there is still something to defend, and to care for.
Who does that?
Well what do people expect? If you are in a country that has 50 million inhabitants, say, your vote will count 1/50,000,000 of the whole. People get annoyed if politics doesn't do what they want but there are 49,999,999 others many of whom want something else I'm afraid. It is different for people who go into local politics and compete for votes. They can make a difference, and be it for a few issues that affect maybe 100,000 people. I know such people. Politics is hard and can be a dirty business, but you can do something if you try. For sure you can raise your influence beyond 1/50,000,000. Voting is not enough to make something happen. Now I'm pretty sure that you guys want to allude to other things than introducing local speed limits (or stopping them from happening) and the like. I'm with you that there is much power that is not in the hand of the elected politicians, and this is a problem (even these are occasionally taken on by elected politicians if you vote for the right ones, but admittedly not often enough). But I still like to focus on the positives, on what is possible. And I like to defend the possibilities that are there rather than seeing even them threatened. You may think there isn't much democracy around, but chances are you agree we don't need even less of it.
Edited by Lewian - March 18 2024 at 18:01 |
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AFlowerKingCrimson
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 02 2016 Location: Philly burbs Status: Online Points: 18278 |
Posted: March 18 2024 at 18:31 |
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They did? I guess I never got that memo.
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21206 |
Posted: March 19 2024 at 02:07 |
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Sure, no system is perfect. But I would argue that the "democracies" in the West are deeply corrupt. A far cry from "good".
I was talking about the notion that we don't actually have democracy in the West. Most people I know would dismiss that as a way-out conspiracy theory.
That's not my point. Even in a group of ten people most decisions will not be representative of each individual. What I am objecting to is the rigging of the choices we are allowed to vote on. Just as in the South Park episode I linked to, it is not a "good" system when all the options are reduced to a douche and a turd by some people behind the scenes which the voters neither know nor can affect in any way.
I guess we'll get by with whatever we have ... after all, as individuals we cannot change the system. Not by trying to educate people (because the system controls education and information), not by violent action (even if it was an appropriate option to begin with - which it isn't - the system is too powerful) and certainly not by voting. We can try to name the problem, but it will likely only go away when it collapses under its own weight, and/or when it gets too big to handle.
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20609 |
Posted: March 19 2024 at 06:26 |
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Edited by SteveG - March 19 2024 at 06:27 |
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This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
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"Democracy is Teetering"
Topic Options
McQuade offers solutions for countering
disinformation and maintaining the rule of law, such as making domestic
terrorism a federal crime, reviving 