Does prog have to be complex to be prog?

AFlowerKingCrimson wrote: Atavachron wrote: ^ That's right, prog does not get a pass. That's what I said although of course I disagree and apparently so do most of the others who voted on here. You are obviously in the minority.

I'm used to that.

The minority of a minority is what, a miniscuality?

I did vote no. Virtuoso performance is not a requirement for a prog track by how I define progressive music.

The broader question is: What are the traits that one thinks a piece music must have in order to be considered prog? Is there a common set of traits for all prog? Or is there a longer list of traits in which a certain percentage must be satisfied? Or, is it just "I know if it is when I hear it"?

Atavachron, by your definition The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway isn't prog (or maybe only half of it is). It's mostly very song oriented with not a lot of complexity in it. I can't imagine many prog fans not thinking it's prog though (well at least not until now). I guess they became prog again with half the songs on the next two albums but after that never did prog again. 

Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - January 19 2024 at 18:30

Atavachron wrote: ^ Well half prog ain't bad, most rock bands don't progress their music to even that extent.

Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - January 19 2024 at 18:47

David_D wrote: As complex as albums like ItCotCK, Tarkus, CttE, SEbtP, TDSotM, H to He, Trilogy, Red, Foxtrot - that's the reference.

Edited by moshkito - January 19 2024 at 21:44

I felt that “maybe/not sure” needed some love….

Complex and Hard to play can be two different things too. You could have a simple V-I ( G major to C major chord for example) where a guitarist is doing rapid cross picking and interval jumps, 32nd note runs ( demi-semi-quaver for the Brits out there), sweep picking, etc that is harder to play than a song that has Tritone substitutions, modal modulation, altered chords, extended chords etc. The harmony with those altered chords, Key changes, etc may be more complex from strictly a harmony viewpoint, but not more difficult to play.

Same thing can be said of time signatures. Typically, an odd time signature is considered more difficult. However, compare Genesis' Turn it on Again which is in 13/4 vs Tigran Hamasyan's Vardavar which is in 4/4 and let me know which is more difficult to play and rhythmically more complex.

^ DSOTM is one of the most progressive releases of all time and features no complex rhythms (no, the 7/4 of Money is not really complex).

Edited by MikeEnRegalia - January 20 2024 at 16:49

MikeEnRegalia wrote: ^ DSOTM is one of the most progressive releases of all time and features no complex rhythms (no, the 7/4 of Money is not really complex).

Which may be one of the reasons Floyd didn't consider themselves progressive rock.

Atavachron wrote: ^ True, and as would follow, Tigran Hamasyan is a progressive artist who appears on PA and who emphasizes complex rhythms, just as Genesis are progressive artists who appear on PA who emphasize(d) complex rhythms.

Himasyan is listed on PA, but he is a Jazz, Jazz Fusion artist, not a Progressive Rock artist. Armenian Folk influences can particularly be found in his compositions. Progressive Rock/Metal does to a lesser extent, influence his music. The Red Hail album is the most obvious of those progressive rock influences.

My opinion is that just because the music by an artist or band is complex and virtuosic does not make it progressive rock. Conversely, because it's not complex and virtuosic doesn't mean it can't be progressive rock.

For example, jazz and jazz fusion is seen as complex. But, look at Miles Davis' album Jack Johnson. Right Off, the track off the first side has musicians improvising over a Bb chord for about 20 minutes before changing to an E chord. Yesternow on the second side has the musicians playing over a Bb ostinato before changing to C minor. From a composition point of view, it's not that complex. The Jack Johnson album was basically a jam session. The improvisations and playing are brilliant, you have Miles, Herbie Hancock, Billy Cobham, John McLaughlin, Michael Henderson and Steve Grossman playing after all, but it's not Giant Steps. I guess it could be argued that Jack Johnson album was a Rock and Funk album played by jazz musicians.