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Does prog have to be complex to be prog?
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Poll Question: In your opinion does prog have to be complex to be prog?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
5 [11.11%]
37 [82.22%]
2 [4.44%]
1 [2.22%]
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Atavachron View Drop Down
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Points: 65266 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2024 at 18:42
^ Well half prog ain't bad, most rock bands don't progress their music to even that extent.
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Atavachron, by your definition The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway isn't prog (or maybe only half of it is). It's mostly very song oriented with not a lot of complexity in it. I can't imagine many prog fans not thinking it's prog though (well at least not until now). I guess they became prog again with half the songs on the next two albums but after that never did prog again. 

Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - January 19 2024 at 18:30
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Points: 65266 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2024 at 18:06
Originally posted by mathman0806 mathman0806 wrote:

The minority of a minority is what, a miniscuality?
I did vote no. Virtuoso performance is not a requirement for a prog track by how I define progressive music.

The broader question is: What are the traits that one thinks a piece music must have in order to be considered prog? Is there a common set of traits for all prog? Or is there a longer list of traits in which a certain percentage must be satisfied? Or, is it just "I know if it is when I hear it"?

It's not about virtuoso performances, it's about progressive rock music--   y'know, music that develops its compositions, themes and structure, emphasizes change & dynamics, isn't satisfied with staying still ?



Edited by Atavachron - January 19 2024 at 18:18
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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The minority of a minority is what, a miniscuality?

I did vote no. Virtuoso performance is not a requirement for a prog track by how I define progressive music.

The broader question is: What are the traits that one thinks a piece music must have in order to be considered prog? Is there a common set of traits for all prog? Or is there a longer list of traits in which a certain percentage must be satisfied? Or, is it just "I know if it is when I hear it"?
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^Prog is in the minority.
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Points: 65266 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2024 at 16:27
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ That's right, prog does not get a pass.
That's what I said although of course I disagree and apparently so do most of the others who voted on here. You are obviously in the minority. Wink

I'm used to that.
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From the OPs definition of complexity I would say no.

Complexity is a subjective idea and each of us probably has differences of opinion on what we consider complex. But I'm fairly certain that talented musicians can easily make a song in 4/4 time very complex as well as make a song in 13/8 time simple. Complexity can be in-your-face as well as very subtle.

If you're really good at dissecting a piece of music into its separate components in your head while listening to it, you'll discover that there are a lot more complexities in music that you never really noticed when you only experience the "surface" of music. This takes time, but I think it's well worth the effort and will expand your appreciation for a piece of music.

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Points: 18278 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2024 at 15:48
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

As complex as albums like ItCotCK, Tarkus, CttE, SEbtP, TDSotM, H to He, Trilogy, Red, Foxtrot - that's the reference.
Those are all albums from the 70s. That was 45-55 years ago. I would like to think that a genre called "progressive rock" could progress in what is considered progressive over time. How progressive is it if the same rules that applied then have to apply now in the 21st century?

If to maintain the quality of what we call "Progressive Rock", we need to demand the same level of complexity as the classics, and I don't see any problems in doing it - unless, because of a wish to expand much.


It can expand in other ways without it having to be complex. There can be other things in the music that makes it prog without it being complex. A great example is Pink Floyd. Most of their music was not very complex at all but there was a poll on here and guess what? At least 70 percent of the voters said they were prog (including me). Aside from Pink Floyd the Moody Blues are another example. I admit that for a while I didn't consider them prog because they weren't as virtuosic or as complex as Yes, Genesis, ELP, KC, etc but then I got over it. There's plenty of things in their music (especially their big seven) to make them progressive.


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - January 19 2024 at 15:53
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Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ That's right, prog does not get a pass.

That's what I said although of course I disagree and apparently so do most of the others who voted on here. You are obviously in the minority. Wink
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:


As complex as albums like ItCotCK, Tarkus, CttE, SEbtP, TDSotM, H to He, Trilogy, Red, Foxtrot - that's the reference.

Those are all albums from the 70s. That was 45-55 years ago. I would like to think that a genre called "progressive rock" could progress in what is considered progressive over time. How progressive is it if the same rules that applied then have to apply now in the 21st century?
For the answer to this and other mystifying questions, watch for the "When Music Becomes Noise" thread. LOL
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

As complex as albums like ItCotCK, Tarkus, CttE, SEbtP, TDSotM, H to He, Trilogy, Red, Foxtrot - that's the reference.
Those are all albums from the 70s. That was 45-55 years ago. I would like to think that a genre called "progressive rock" could progress in what is considered progressive over time. How progressive is it if the same rules that applied then have to apply now in the 21st century?

If to maintain the quality of what we call "Progressive Rock", we need to demand the same level of complexity as the classics, and I don't see any problems in doing it - unless, because of a wish to expand much.
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Points: 65266 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2024 at 14:36
^ That's right, prog does not get a pass.
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Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Conversely, rock music, or rock 'n roll ~ which is to say anyone from Elvis to the Stones to AC/DC to Bad Company to the Police ~ is by nature and intention a simple form of music. Therefore progressive rock must not be simple but complex.   I'm surprised at the amount of resistance to that notion.

Why does progressive have to equal complexity? Is psych rock complex? Is post-rock complex? Is Jam complex? Those also aren't genres of regular rock n roll yet no one expects them to be complex. They get a pass but prog doesn't?
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Conversely, rock music, or rock 'n roll ~ which is to say anyone from Elvis to the Stones to AC/DC to Bad Company to the Police ~ is by nature and intention a simple form of music. Therefore progressive rock must not be simple but complex.   I'm surprised at the amount of resistance to that notion.
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

^and there are different ways of being progressive. I think a "sonically progressive" group that comes up with something relatively "new, unheard or unique" - that challenges or expands what (some kind of rock related) music can be or mean, but not in the most virtouso/complex way can be more progressive than a band that plays around with complex time signatures. I suppose Änglagård Hybris is more technically complex than Talk Talk's two last albums and say... early Tortoise' music. But I think of the two latter bands as more progressive, but less Prog Rock, than the former band.
This.
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:


As complex as albums like ItCotCK, Tarkus, CttE, SEbtP, TDSotM, H to He, Trilogy, Red, Foxtrot - that's the reference.

Those are all albums from the 70s. That was 45-55 years ago. I would like to think that a genre called "progressive rock" could progress in what is considered progressive over time. How progressive is it if the same rules that applied then have to apply now in the 21st century?
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Points: 18278 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2024 at 08:52
Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

Quote Sometimes some artists want to be complex just for the sake of complexity
Example: Ruins 😜

Maybe, maybe not. You don't know the intention of the musicians. I used to think this about Gentle Giant until one super fan convinced me otherwise. I actually used to see Gary Green on occasion so I probably should have asked him about this when I had the chance. However, it's up the musicians to say why they are creating the music and not us (the listeners). Even if it's really complex there might be some sort of "method to the madness" so to speak.
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^and there are different ways of being progressive. I think a "sonically progressive" group that comes up with something relatively "new, unheard or unique" - that challenges or expands what (some kind of rock related) music can be or mean, but not in the most virtouso/complex way can be more progressive than a band that plays around with complex time signatures. I suppose Änglagård Hybris is more technically complex than Talk Talk's two last albums and say... early Tortoise' music. But I think of the two latter bands as more progressive, but less Prog Rock, than the former band.


Edited by Saperlipopette! - January 19 2024 at 09:01
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^ Of course progressiveness isn't binary - some releases are more progressive, some are less progressive, but still "prog". The ones you listed are definitely on the high end of the spectrum.
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As complex as albums like ItCotCK, Tarkus, CttE, SEbtP, TDSotM, H to He, Trilogy, Red, Foxtrot - that's the reference.
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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