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dude
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Joined: January 30 2004
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Topic: classical Posted: April 10 2004 at 10:30 |
Please forgive me for introducing what some may consider an "Elitist" thread,but since the invention of the modern piano by Christefori(1709 i think) ushered in a whole new wave of music(and expression) there have been many composers of classical music,Who do you beleive were the most "progressive" and how do you beleive they may have influenced modern progrock...EG ELPs excursions into the classical realm are an example( i can think of other examples but i am very interested in your thoughtful opinions!!) (this ties in with an earlier thread on classical for proggers..which i beleive is importent given the nature of the music we love!!)
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lucas
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Posted: April 10 2004 at 11:15 |
dude wrote:
Please forgive me for introducing what some may consider an "Elitist" thread,but since the invention of the modern piano by Christefori(1709 i think) ushered in a whole new wave of music(and expression) there have been many composers of classical music,Who do you beleive were the most "progressive" and how do you beleive they may have influenced modern progrock...EG ELPs excursions into the classical realm are an example( i can think of other examples but i am very interested in your thoughtful opinions!!)(this ties in with an earlier thread on classical for proggers..which i beleive is importent given the nature of the music we love!!) |
belIEve! Are you dyslexic, dude ? About your question, I think BACH has influenced many people (for the "church" organ as said previously in another thread danbo and the points-counterpoints) : Yes' "Close to the edge" or "Awaken" for the use of the organ, ELP (on "Tarkus"), The Nice (they have released a prog version of the Brandenburger Concerto), Robert Fripp, Ron Jarzombek in Spastic Ink, Steve Morse (the title "point counterpoint" on Southern steel or "flat baroque" on Coast to coast relate clearly to the BAROQUE era, and Bach in peculiar)... Otherwise, I think CHOPIN influenced many shredders : Tony McAlpine, Vitalij Kuprij... The french romantics (ST-SAEANS, DEBUSSY) had a huge influence on Kit Watkins (just listen to some of his compositions on Happy The Man's first record : "Starborne" or "Hidden moods") and on the brazilian violinist Marcus Viana (leader of the symph-prog band Sagrado Coraçao da terra and one of the most gifted violinist I heard in my life). Tony Banks was also surely influenced by some romantics. And LISZT almost surely influenced guys such as Jordan Rudess. However, jazz-oriented bands such as Magma or Soft Machine were probably more influenced by guys such as Duke Ellington than F. Chopin. And the RIO and Zappa-influenced bands have surely more in common with Stravinsky, Varèse and Ligeti than with the romantic composers. Oh, I forgot to mention Mussorgsky without whom "Pictures at an exhibition" would never have been.
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"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
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dude
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 30 2004
Location: Australia
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Points: 1338
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Posted: April 10 2004 at 12:03 |
LUCAS: to answer your question YES I AM DYSLEXIC, I COULD NOT TELL THE TIME UNTIL I WAS 19 AND COULD NOT TIE MY SHOE LACES UNTIL ABOUT THE SAME TIME.BECAUSE OF MY CONDITION I WAS MADE TO REPEAT A COUPLE OF GRADES AT SCHOOL BECAUSE THE TEACHERS WERE NOT ABLE TO DIAGNOSE MY CONDITION(EVEN THOUGH I EXCELLED AT MATHS!!!,THEY THOUGHT I WAS STUPID!!! )......STILL I HAVE NO PROBLEMS WITH GOOD NATURED JOKES ABOUT DISLEXIA SO FEEL FREE TO MAKE JOKES ABOUT MY SPELLIN....CMON... I DARE YOU (thank goodness for keyboards!!! )
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Peter
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Posted: April 10 2004 at 12:09 |
I apologise on his behalf, Dude.
Shall I start publicly pointing out all the errors/poor English in other people's reviews?
I think not.
In any case, if you feel moved to correct a prog buddy, there is the Private Messenger. (Much more considerate and diplomatic, you know.)
Edited by Peter Rideout
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy.
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Peter
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Posted: April 10 2004 at 12:12 |
Re classical: Beethoven was a proto-progger. Lizst, Bach, Tchaikovsky, all influential.
Still, I'm certainly no expert in this area. Any classically trained/educated musicians out there?
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy.
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Vibrationbaby
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Joined: February 13 2004
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Posted: April 10 2004 at 12:15 |
Back to the main topic. Focus were the masters of neo-classical rock along with Gentle Giant (see my review on Hamburger Concerto). Nothing against Emerson. I'm a big fan of the Nice & ELP but classical musicians tend to see his re-workings of the classics as butcher jobs. I'm sure Mussorsky was doing backflips in his grave when Pictures came out.
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dude
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Location: Australia
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Posted: April 10 2004 at 12:16 |
NO apologies are necesserry because no offence is taken as long as it is ggod natured please feel free to poke freindly fun PETER,SORR.Y I KEEP FORGETTING THE PM...MY BAD
Edited by dude
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Peter
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Posted: April 10 2004 at 12:23 |
Vibrationbaby wrote:
Back to the main topic. Focus were the masters of neo-classical rock along with Gentle Giant (see my review on Hamburger Concerto). Nothing against Emerson. I'm a big fan of the Nice & ELP but classical musicians tend to see his re-workings of the classics as butcher jobs. I'm sure Mussorsky was doing backflips in his grave when Pictures came out. |
I don't know much about Mussorsky, but maybe the old composers would be flattered and intrigued by the attention given to their music in a new format, and might have embraced the new technology, like music-writing programs on computers. Perhaps Beethoven would have loved to have played with a synth.
We'll never know, but it's fun to speculate!
Now those "hooked on classics" dance mixes of the disco era -- they were unforgivable CRAP!
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy.
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Peter
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Posted: April 10 2004 at 12:28 |
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy.
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dude
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Posted: April 10 2004 at 12:33 |
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Peter
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Posted: April 10 2004 at 12:35 |
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy.
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Vibrationbaby
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Posted: April 10 2004 at 12:44 |
A good example of how classic masters might have reacted to modern interpretations of their music using the new technology ie. synths, electric guitars amplification etc. were some comments made by Segovia regarding John Mclaughlin's Mahavishnu Orchestra. He thought highly of McLaughlin's speed and technical ability but couldn't stand his overdriven, over-amplified & distorted guitar. He was a true enemy of the electric guitar. My wife is a classical musician and teacher as I mentioned on another thread and likes some of the stuff I listen to but she will often make comments like, "sure, he can play the notes but he is not getting the music." She is a little bit more open minded than a lot of people she brings to the house. When I know a particular person is easily offended by loud rock music then I'll throw on something like Guru Guru UFO crank up the stereo and get the dogs barking.
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Marcelo
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Joined: February 15 2004
Location: Argentina
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Posted: April 10 2004 at 13:31 |
I'm not sure, but I think that Walter Carlos (after his sex surgery he became in Wendy Carlos) was one of the first modern musicians who recreated classical music using electronic elements (Electronic Bach I & II and Stanley Kubrick's Clockwork Orange soundtrack, as far I remember). But in the Netherlands there were the better (IMO) classical influenced musicians: Ekseption, Focus and Trace. Bach will always be alive .
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Certif1ed
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Posted: April 10 2004 at 13:37 |
Just imagine Yngwie Malmsteen duetting with that 17th-century violin shredder Tartini!
And Stockhausen, Varese et al have surely done more for electronic music than anyone? Frank Zappa (may he rest in peace) was profoundly influenced by Varese, from the accounts I've read. Stockhausen, of course, invented sequencing back in the early 1940s. Check out his music - especially Gesang Der Junglinge or Kontakte - it will blow your mind, or send you into a deep state of total confusion...
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
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Posted: April 10 2004 at 14:31 |
Vibrationbaby wrote:
Back to the main topic. Focus were the masters of neo-classical rock along with Gentle Giant (see my review on Hamburger Concerto). Nothing against Emerson. I'm a big fan of the Nice & ELP but classical musicians tend to see his re-workings of the classics as butcher jobs. I'm sure Mussorsky was doing backflips in his grave when Pictures came out. |
A common mis-conception I believe.
Keith Emerson has received much criticism for his arrangements of the classics.However it has not always been dead composers that he has 'targeted'.You might be interested in the reaction that he got from 2 very much alive composers at the time.
Firstly ELP - Toccata (based on a peice of music by Argentinian composer Alberto Ginastera) .Emerson asked for permission from Ginastera for ELP to use his music.Ginastera said ok but I want to hear it first and invited Emerson to dinner.The inviting was done through Ginastera's wife as he couldn't speak English(she could).Anyway they had dinner and afterwards it got to the point of listening to the tape that Emo had brought with him.After it finished there was a bit of a silence then Ginastera shouted ''Terrible,terrible''.Emerson was naturally a little preturbed and then looked at Ginastera's wife who said something like '' It's ok, my husband loves it!''. Hence the glowing endorsement on Brain Salad Surgery from Ginastera ''Keith Emerson Has Beautifully Caught The Mood Of My Peice''.
The second concerns Fanfare For The Common Man.ELP originally recorded this with an extended studio jam that appeared on Works Vol One.The first 2 minutes is faithfull to Copeland's music and was a surprise UK hit (No2 in 1977) when it was released.When ELP sought Copeland's permission to use it they only sent the first 2 minutes fearing that the other 7 minutes might cause a problem.On hearing the 2 minutes Copeland denied permsission as he felt that ELP's arrangement was too close to his original score.So they tried sending him the whole track.Then Copeland was happy and gave them permission to use it.
These 2 examples seem to suggest that classical composers are much less protective of their 'babies' than we would naturally assume.They like the fact that other musicians are inspired by their music and don't expect extreme reverance towards protecting every little hair of it.
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Stormcrow
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Joined: February 05 2004
Location: United States
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Posted: April 10 2004 at 15:29 |
WARNING: convoluted run-on sentence ensues!
In answer to the original question: by the way we view the history of music, the aknowledged masters of classical music from the Baroque period (J. S. Bach, Handel, Pachabel, Vivaldi), to the "Classical" classical period (Beethoven, Hayden, Mozart), through the Romantic period (Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Wagner); were by definition progressive, taking what had come before and adding to it to go someplace new.
We remember the above composers precisely because they made something new and brilliant that shocked their contemporaries and survived unto the day.
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Glass-Prison
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Joined: February 08 2004
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Posted: April 10 2004 at 17:51 |
I'd like to point out one of my favourite classical pianists. Rachmanhoff, an american composer from the turn of the century has an interesting style. He is known to play arpeggios with one hand, while belting out chord tones with the other hand! His music took a direction completely different from most of the mainstream composers of the time. If anyone has heard his third symphony, you will understand that he is an awesome 'headbanging' artist. (and one of the few classical composers you can headbang to)
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Peter
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Posted: April 10 2004 at 22:43 |
Stormcrow wrote:
WARNING: convoluted run-on sentence ensues!
In answer to the original question: by the way we view the history of music, the aknowledged masters of classical music from the Baroque period (J. S. Bach, Handel, Pachabel, Vivaldi), to the "Classical" classical period (Beethoven, Hayden, Mozart), through the Romantic period (Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Wagner); were by definition progressive, taking what had come before and adding to it to go someplace new.
We remember the above composers precisely because they made something new and brilliant that shocked their contemporaries and survived unto the day.
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Exactly!
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy.
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dude
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Joined: January 30 2004
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Posted: April 10 2004 at 22:58 |
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lucas
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Posted: April 11 2004 at 09:34 |
Glass-Prison wrote:
Rachmanhoff |
Correction : Rachmaninoff.
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"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
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