Is Italian prog epig&#111;nic?

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Posted: May 30 2023 at 07:44

Silly and ridiculous but we are talking about Prog so...

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Posted: May 30 2023 at 07:45

Edward Macan in Rocking the Classics:

"Indeed, although Continental Europe produced some very accomplished progressive rock bands, most of these groups are stylistically indebted to one or more of the major english bands; it is in fact possible to write a coherent history of progressive rock as a style by focusing entirely on English progressive rock bands.

The main contribution of Continental bands was to bring national characteristics to bear upon the idiom..........Italian bands introduced an emphasis on lyricism, vocal effusiveness, and melodrama that often differentiates them from the English colleagues. While those attuned to the relative reserve of much English progressive rock may find some Italian progressive rock ....unnecessarily melodramatic, even slightly vulgar, those who find English progressive rock somewhat "cold" and "lacking in heart" ....may well prefer the Italian equivalent." (1997, p. 184)

Edited by David_D - May 30 2023 at 13:00

quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond

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http://https://rateyourmusic.com/charts/top/album/all-time/g:progressive-rock/2/

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Posted: May 30 2023 at 10:05

Logan wrote:

jamesbaldwin wrote:

Logan wrote:

^ I love Morricone of course.

jamesbaldwin wrote:

I consider a great merit that Progarchives has several albums by PFM and Banco in the top 30 (RYM, on the other hand, will never have Italian artists even in the top 100, by force of circumstance, no one in Italy follows it and the voters are not music connoisseurs like the PA forumists).

jamesbaldwin wrote:

Logan wrote:

Italian Prog certainly makes this top RYM chart CLICK Said it before, but the value for me is the versatility in how you can customise the charts which make discovering new albums quite easy and I'm far more interested in discovering new-to-me albums through charts than finding things I already know well.

Greg, you are watching to the Top Italian prog chart.

If you see RYM Best prog albums of all time chart,

the first Italian album (Museo Rosenbach) is at number 63.

I'm not just watching it, by adding the terms Italy (location) and genre Prog Rock, I set that list. My point is that the value is in the customisation.

Of course at PA when also can limit it to country: Here is the list CLICK

I actually don't know what you mean by by RYM will never have them in the top 100 as, as you for the Prog chart, Zarathustra is in the top 100, and if you compare PA's rating to RYM's ratings by number of ratings, Italy's albums regularly have higher numbers of raters than PA. Maybe you meant all genres, all time?

Here is the 1970's jazz-rock list (no other criteria/tags set than that), and you'll notice that Area is in the top 12. CLICK If I do it for 1970's Avant-Prog, Area'a debut is at number 4 with 3.77 and 3,083 ratings. Overall for all albums it's ranked at #65 for 1973, #2,221 overall (all years), which is not shabby. At PA Arbeit Macht Frei has 730 ratings. The value in the RYM charts to me are how you use them and how you customise them, and if one spent more time with that then I think one would find that it can be a very valuable tool.
I have felt like your derisive comments about RYM in discussion over the years have been born out of a very limited perspective and experience with the site, and fits your narrative and your particular biases.
-------------------------------

Anyway, to answer the title question, some Italian prog is epigonic, some is not. If you user a looser definition of Prog which includes more academic music and experimental and soundtrack kind of music than you find far more innovative, inventive Italian music. I do put ones like Morricone, Umiliani and Egisto Macchi under the Prog umbrella for music they created. Area is very unique, and Stormy Six is innovative.

Greg,

I try to answer.

1) Yes, I mean that in the top 100 albums of all time there is no Italian album.

2) Morricone and Umiliani are quoted by Merlin like innovative musicians.

3) I love Stormy Six's L'apprendista and Macchina maccheronica, two of the most beautiful Italian prog albums ever, but I don consider them particularly innovative.

4) Italy doesnt have a great tradition of rock music. The exception is prog music, for which it excels, after Great Britain. So it is fortunate that in RYM Area they are in a good position in the ranking by year and genre. But the fact remains that in the RYM prog album rankings Italy does not go beyond 63rd place, after a series of albums that besides not being very beautiful (my opinion) were not even particularly historically important or popular (and this is objective, I could give you examples).

In PA there are 6 Italian albums in the Top 60.

Anyway, RYM's charts are clearly dictated by Anglo-American, and at best French, culture. Italian albums inevitably take a back seat.

But that is not why I dont consider their charts qualified. I say this by seeing them: it isnt serious to give so much importance to a few moreover questionable artists (Kendrick Lamar, Radiohead) for the firsts places. The fact that three Radiohead records and two by Lamar is clearly ahead of any record by Dylan, Stones, Young, Reed, Springsteen, Waits, is enough for me to disregard that ranking. I think the best charts are those made by specialised listeners, not those left in the public domain: those only reflect the tastes of the public accessing the platforms, and in some cases also of the most active fan groups.

- Bruce Springsteen - Born to Run 3.95 / 5.0 from 15,698 ratings #6 for 1975, #321 overall

- Bob Dylan - Highway 61 Revisited 4.15 / 5.0 from 31,188 ratings #2 for 1965, #55 overall

- Rolling Stones - Sticky Fingers 3.99 / 5.0 from 19,496 ratings Ranked     #11 for 1971, #205 overall

- Neil Young - After the Gold Rush 4.07 / 5.0 from 20,981 ratings Ranked #5 for 1970, #115 overall

- Lou Reed - Transformer 3.90 / 5.0 from 20,932 ratings Ranked     #15 for 1972, #380 overall

- Tom Waits - Rain Dogs 4.05 / 5.0 from 22,367 ratings
Ranked     #2 for 1985, #122 overall

That's a heck of a lot of ratings just on those classic albums. Radiohead happens to be more important to me than those (and I heartily dislike Springsteen generally, not that that matters). Thinking that the charts have no validity, and are worthless, as I think you have put it before seems very odd just because some more recent ones that you don't have lot of respect for are more popular there. I don't take charts that seriously period. If lots of people loved a Bieber album and it was top of the general music charts, that wou;ld not take away the value I have found in discovering-new-to-me albums thanks to searching the charts with, mostly, custom searches.

It seems kind of arrogant to disregard it because you don't hold some popular (much rated and highly rated) acts in high esteem -- try customising those filters more. This is a site of this millennium that has had a lot of millennials (and younger now). We're too young to have been able to appreciate the early 70s in music at the time.

And when comparing PA, it seems comparing a prog site's chart to a general music one is a rather strange approach (although I went through the top several thousand listings off the RYM general music chart searching for music in PA for a series of polls -- I did that because a considerable amount of what is in PA won't be tagged the same there (might not have Prog a as primary tag). Maybe rather than the chart position, focus on the number of raters when comparing specific albums in PA to RYM. I did have too much time on my hands.

As said, though, for me the value is in customising the lists to fine tune my searches mostly for new-to-me albums. It does help that great may raters do seem to align well with my tastes at RYM (better than at PA, actually, when it comes to music included in PA).

While I don't value charts much period in a sense (I do find it interesting often), by specialising one's search terms for the chart listings then I tend to find more personal value. But I also read reviews there and get a feel that way. I like the fact that there are so very many users ratings albums there, and there is such diverse music. If you don't, fine, but I can't empathathise with many of your comments about RYM and its many, many users. I'm happy to see that there are so many people who like the same music as I do there, and I do wish to focus more on the positives. That said, sorry getting into it again.

I agree that RYM can have its uses in discovering new artists, being a universal archive, and in classifying them according to musical genres in detail.

Usefulness can be had by using that archive in many ways.

As for the rankings, it may be that, as you wrote, by highlighting some of your favourite artists who were somewhat disadvantaged in the Progarchives rankings (I'm thinking of Can and Radiohead and I suppose others), you are better off with those rankings.

You consider Radiohead one of the most important group in Rock history, more important than Dylan etc. It's not my case.

But... I try to explain better my point of view:

Take a look at the chart of the 70's Top 40:

http://https://rateyourmusic.com/charts/top/album/1970s/

Why dont I like it?

For many reasons:

1) I like Pink Floyd a lot, but I cannot conceive of a ranking where one group dominates so much that it has three of its albums in the top six! And I am not even talking about the ranking of prog albums, this is the ranking of all music from the seventies. Is Pink Floyd so much better than the rest? Are they so dominant that they imposed their genre and characterised all the music of the seventies?

Absolutely not!

This is a ranking that shows that there are many Pink Floyd fans, that PF is famous worldwide and among young people. Nothing else, though.

2) The same goes for David Bowie. He is present with four albums in the Top40. Four! Dylan with one and Young with two albums. Springsteen and Reed and Waits none. Am I therefore to think that Bowie is clearly the greatest singer-songwriter of the 1970s?

No, I think he has more active fans on RYM.

3) In this Top 40

if I add the albums of PF + KC + Bowie + Black Sabbath + Can + Stevie Wonder

I see that these 6 artists/groups monopolise 15 of the top 26 positions.

I would therefore have to believe that they are the dominators, outright, of all 1970s music.

In short, in my opinion, a serious, competent ranking, encompassing all genres, cannot be dominated by so few artists.

Edited by jamesbaldwin - May 30 2023 at 10:20

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Posted: May 30 2023 at 10:43

Personally, I think of the classic Italian Progressive Rock as quite different from the English one.

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Posted: May 30 2023 at 10:59

David_D wrote:

Edward Macan in Rocking the Classics:

"Indeed, although Continental Europe produced some very accomplished progressive rock bands, most of these groups are stylistically indebted to one or more of the major english Bands; it is in fact possible to write a coherent history of progressive rock as a style by focusing entirely on English progressive rock bands.

In my opinion, this is a dispassionate and balanced critical judgement.

There is undoubtedly some truth in it, if I think of PFM, Banco, Le Orme and Museo Rosenbach, Osanna, who were certainly inspired by EL&P, Yes, King Crimson, Genesis, especially for the piano/organ/keyboard/synth parts.

And in my opinion they achieved sometimes better results, on a melodic point of view: Storia di un minuto, Banco & Darwin, Collage, Zarathustra, Palepoli are on the same level as the best Yes and Genesis albums, and clearly better than any EL&P album (KC's peaks I consider the highest of all).

(While Area, Balletto di Bronzo, Perigeo and Napoli centrale, who are in the jazz-rock camp, were not inspired by British prog).

Why do you consider Italian prog very different from English symphonic prog?

Edited by jamesbaldwin - May 30 2023 at 11:02

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Posted: May 30 2023 at 11:04

^^^ @ Lorenzo (aka jamesbaldwin)...

I didn't mean that I consider Radiohead to be one of the most important groups in rock history (although I do), nor that I consider it to be more important than Dylan etc. By saying it's more important to me I meant that it's something that I listen to regularly and rate highly. If I were a rater at RYM, I wouldn't rate Dylan (nor Springsteen who I don't like/ dislike other than some early stuff), but I definitely would rate various Radiohead albums. That ranking is based on popularity due to calculating the overall ratings; it's not about best or more important. You seem to be looking at it from the wrong perspective from my perspective.

And in Prog Archives, Pink Floyd has three albums in the all-time Prog top 9. It is what it is. Pink Floyd has been one of the most important bands in my life and many others. Pink Floyd was very popular with our generation (Gen X) too. Lots of older brothers had it in the collections. It was my favourite band for many years. My eldest brother is going on 60 and he loves Pink Floyd (maybe not as much as he loves Nick Cave...)

It is a ranking of popularity, not best, based on an accumulation of a great many ratings from diverse groups of people. It does not seem strange to me with the way these are set out that if a an album by one group is very known and popular (gets many high ratings) then other albums by that act would also get many ratings and therefor rank high. This is why I don't understand some who complain about certain groups dominating with multiple albums -- it just means that those are well0-known and popular groups with a great many. If I made 10 best list. I would do one per artist, but that's not how those sites, including PA work when it comes to the lists.

Bowie is incredibly popular, so I find it strange that someone would take issue with that. Springsteen is not as popular, again I would not rate Springsteen, so wait. As for Lou Reed, of course with Velvet Underground he is very popular at RYM. And 20,932 ratings for Transformer is a lot of ratings. I had not idea that album would be as popular as it has been (I love VU, but I'm not that familiar with him solo).

I don't know what you mean by a serious, competent ranking in this case. I would expect several artists to dominate popularity lists the way RYM and PA work. People rate their favourite albums by their favourite bands/artists. What's there to take seriously other than if the algorithm represents the majority for ranking and if there's been abuse (as has happened at PA)?

I honestly can't grok where you are coming from and I wonder if you're missing the point of such lists.

Why should, say, Bruce Springsteen be ranked higher than Radiohead at such a site that accumulates ratings from individual albums from large numbers of people? I wouldn't personally rank him higher, and I would not expect the majority to know and prefer Springsteen... I'll do a poll on it here.

{edited quotes out due to Cristi's valid concern -- hopefully that make it easier for more people to read through the thread and join on this discussion -- great to get a few people with different perspectives chiming in}

Edited by Logan - May 30 2023 at 12:05

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Posted: May 30 2023 at 11:16

^ OMG

, trim the quotes please. Smile

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Posted: May 30 2023 at 11:47

^ Well since you asked so very nicely with please, no!

Sorry Cristi, but it's harder for me to follow the context and flow without full quotes (and it makes it easier for me to read full quotes when reading discussions from others). That said, it's not as easy a read for me now as it would have been for a younger, smarter and more alert me.. I worked as a copy-editor for many years, but editing is also a pain -- doing it in a way where one doesn't lose context or nuance, where one doesn't misrepresent another's argument.... This is why I prefer quoting in full or not at all often. Of course these threads are group discussion, and if it makes it harder, and it does, for people like you to jump in on the conversation with your own salient points, then I should take that into consideration. I was told by one very articulate PA member that he could hardly ever understand a word I said (probably exaggerating as most words I use are well-established in the dictionary), so kudos on getting anything out of it if you do.

Edited by Logan - May 30 2023 at 11:49

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Posted: May 30 2023 at 11:50

Logan wrote:

^ Well since you asked so very nicely with please, no!

Sorry Cristi, but it's harder for me to follow the context and flow without full quotes (and it makes it easier for me to read full quotes when reading discussions from others). That said, it's not as easy a read for me now as it would have been for a younger, smarter and more alert me.. I worked as an editor for many years, but editing is also a pain -- doing it in a way where one doesn't lost context or nuance, where one doesn't misrepresent another's argument.... This is why I prefer quoting in full or not at all often. Of course these threads are group discussion, and if it makes it harder, and it does, for people like you to jump in on the conversation with your own salient points, then I should take that into consideration. I was told by one very articulate PA member that he could hardly every understand a word I said (probably exaggerating as most words I use are well-established in the dictionary), so kudos on getting anything out of it.

gigantic quotes are tiresome, like reading a big paragraph, nobody likes that. LOL

The metal forum where i hang out sometimes does not allow big quotes, this page would give them nightmares. LOL

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Posted: May 30 2023 at 11:55

^ I understand, Cristi, but editing is not easy even for an ex editor (still do some for a uni but my brain is just not up to the task anymore). What I often do is just use ^ and ^^, that's what I should have done. I'll remove the quotes. I see you got a thanks, so clearly you are not alone. Anyone interested can always read back through the thread. I do appreciate the feedback. I actually do often think that quoting is much overused and it can break up the flow of the thread -- it has its benefits of course in forums.

Edited by Logan - May 30 2023 at 11:59

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Posted: May 30 2023 at 12:03

Logan wrote:

^ I understand, Cristi, but editing is not easy even for an ex editor (still do some for a uni but my brain is just not up to the task anymore). What I often do is just use ^ and ^^, that's what I should have done. I'll remove the quotes. I see you got a thanks, so clearly you are not alone. Anyone interested can always read back through the thread. I do appreciate the feedback. I actually do often think that quoting is much overused and it can break up the flow of the thread -- it has its benefits of course in forums.

no worries, my bad, I didn't mean it as a reproach. Smile

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Posted: May 30 2023 at 12:07

^ No worries, I think you made a good point. Thanks.

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Posted: May 30 2023 at 13:17

David_D wrote:

Personally, I think of the classic Italian Progressive Rock as quite different from the English one.

jamesbaldwin wrote:

Why do you consider Italian prog very different from English symphonic prog?

Sorry, but I can't explain it adequately, and it's meant as a purely subjective statement - that's just the way I experience and feel it.

quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond

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Posted: May 31 2023 at 05:26

I also doubt much that the classic Italian Progressive Rock would be rated as highly as it is if people thought of it as something

very similar to some other specific music.

Edited by David_D - May 31 2023 at 05:39

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Posted: May 31 2023 at 07:36

David_D wrote:

I also doubt much that the classic Italian Progressive Rock would be rated as highly as it is if people thought of it as something

very similar to some other specific music.

Hi,

Agreed!

And when one considers how Manticore selected Banco and PFM to be their first releases in America and England, it tells you that the guys at Manticore, and ELP had an appreciation for their music, or they would not have been asked.

Simply because there are similar instruments, and an organ is used, and later a synth, the sounds maybe be the same to one's ears, but in actuality this is impossible ... since everyone's ears is very different and hears different things, and that would suggest we're projecting someone else's sound into the new group ... and this hurts a lot of new bands, as it did some of the older bands that are still compared to Genesis, ELP and the Venusian All-Stars! All that states, for me, is that the person writing those reviews can not listen past the comparison to give the individual their taste and touch a comment worthy of their work. And this is what has hurt the rock press more than anything else, and one reason why I dislike the top merde numbers, since it ends up having folks comparing to the "bigger" (and therefore "better"!!!!) ... artist in the numbers, and there goes the chance for a lot of bands, even though we came to find and enjoy a lot of things from 40 and 50 years ago that we did not even know existed ... but the stuff that is done today that sounds like a copy of a copy, is the one that is going to get hurt and ignored the most ... in my estimation, and while many of these bands are not my preference, in the end, they have the right, to do something, even if it is not an artistic ideal ... but I'm not sure that we should be "voting" bar bands to PA at all!

I think the "epigonic" idea is over rated since Italy has had a much longer history (possibly since it can go way back to chants and other materials from the church) of music, however, when it came to rock music, it is hard to not think that the success that many found in America ... was impossible to resist. That some stuff (supposedly) ended up sounding like something else is a bit strange and weird ... but it might also suggest how much the group does not have "inside" (like BANCO did!!!) to make sure they could be themselves and not some idea or other, like "sounding American" ...

As PFM said ... "is my face on straight? ... " which I think pretty much covers the idea. Epigonic is just a word, not a fact, anyway! All bands, and us have things that we like and loved and we might copy a thing or two ... but so what ... the context is different, and we are not giving the band's that ability and choice!

Edited by moshkito - May 31 2023 at 18:08

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Posted: June 01 2023 at 07:12

It's just music...

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