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Re-arrange the Top 30 of all time

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jamesbaldwin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2023 at 12:27
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

27) Genesis: Nursery Crime

My first reaction: Nursery Cryme - quite important Smile, then, I have to think about it.

I've tried to explain my opinion in my review:

I'm surprised that this album is held in such high regard here in PA (number 12 on the Top Albums of all time!). I think it is the worst of the classic Genesis period (and even Trespass is much better).


The famous "The Musical Box" (rating 7.5 / 8) is a song that starts slow, subdued, intimate and stays in this mood (monotonous at times) for almost 4 minutes; then comes the rock instrumental part, where the musicians show off their virtuosity, and Collins (more than Hackett) proves his worth, characterising the Genesis sound with his jazzy rhythm. The track goes on for up to 10 minutes, alternating beautiful instrumental progressions with stunted sung pieces. Overall, it does not take off, never reaching a climax. 


"For Absent Friends" (6.5) is an acoustic piece of less than two minutes, beautiful in its singing, but without development. "The Return of the Giant Hogweed" (rating 8) starts with a nice rock rhythm in which Banks and Collins give their best. It lacks a melody, everything is based on a rhythm that continues very pompous; after 5 minutes the song pauses, the rhythm becomes slower and the sound intimate; but then it ends with a pompous ending. It is the best song on the album, but something is missing to consider it an absolute masterpiece. End of side A.


"Seven Stones" (rating 7.5/8) is a 5-minute ballad with a good progression in which romantic epic moments and rock moments alternate with many changes of rhythm. "Harold the Barrel" (rated 7+) is a pop song, with the atmosphere of a variety song. It shows Peter Gabriel's ironic/satirical streak. The three-minute song 'Harlequin' is the worst song on the album, being cloying (rating 6+). 
The last song, 'The Fountain of Salmacis' (rating 7.5) closes the LP. It is the third long song (8 minutes) after Musical Box and Giant Hogweed, and like the other two is pompous and magniloquent. Gabriel's vocals are strangely in the background, Banks' keyboard, as usual, drives the music (again more rhythm than melody); in the instrumental parts the bass solo can be heard. 


The album is not very inspired: on a melodic level it is definitely inferior to Trespass. It requires very careful listening and on the whole does not linger in the mind, it is too elaborate and forced in many parts. There are good songs, but they are not true masterpieces (not even Musical Box). The technical expertise, especially in the instrumental parts, partly compensates for the poor melodic vein. I think this record is very overrated, probably because it is the first with the line-up most beloved by Genesis fans. In my opinion, it is a transitional album: after the excellent Trespass, a linear, inspired, compact, melodically beautiful album, Nursery Crime tries new paths (which will be developed in the following albums) by focusing less on melody and more on technical rate. Where Trespass is melodically sublime in its epicness, Nursery Crime is very pumped up thanks to frenzied rhythms: therein lies the difference between inspiration and technique.


Average song quality: 7.29
Album rating: 7.5.    
Three stars. 



Edited by jamesbaldwin - May 12 2023 at 12:32
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2023 at 08:44
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

I Love King Crimson's outstanding debut, but Larks' Tongues in Aspic leaves a sour taste in my mouth. Wink 

While another album makes you to see a bit too much of red? Big smile
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2023 at 08:26
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Then I'm curious, Paul, how many of the top 30 albums are you fond of?
All of them, apart from Gentle Giant, Van der Graaf Generator, Frank Zappa and the four unknown Italian albums. 

What about King Crimson?

I Love King Crimson's outstanding debut, but Larks' Tongues in Aspic leaves a sour taste in my mouth. Wink 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2023 at 08:22

Anyway, Paul, you're about as much a mainstream man here as I am. 








Edited by David_D - May 12 2023 at 08:41
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2023 at 08:04
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Then I'm curious, Paul, how many of the top 30 albums are you fond of?
All of them, apart from Gentle Giant, Van der Graaf Generator, Frank Zappa and the four unknown Italian albums. 

What about King Crimson?

                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2023 at 08:01

I found this exercice ratherv difficult and it's not perfect.

I had to magnify the differences between what is commonly agreed as 5Star and 3.5 Star

*****

In The Court Of The Crimson King

The Dark Side Of The Moon

Si On Avait ..

Birds Of Fire

Wish You Were Here

Thick as a Brick


**** 1/2

Godbluff

Selling England By The Pound

Hybris

Red

Lark's Tongues In Aspic


****

Close To The Edge

In A Glass House

Animals

Foxtrot

Storia Di Un Minuto

Hot Rats

A Kind Of Blue

Io sono nato libero

Relayer

Nursery Cryme

Aqualung


*** 1/2

A Farewell To Kings

Fragile

Darwin!

H to E, Who Am The Only One

Pawn Hearts

Moving Pictures

Hemispheres

Mirage

Moonmadness

Per Un Amico




Edited by Sean Trane - May 12 2023 at 08:03
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
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as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2023 at 07:47
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:


Then I'm curious, Paul, how many of the top 30 albums are you fond of?
All of them, apart from Gentle Giant, Van der Graaf Generator, Frank Zappa and the four unknown Italian albums. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gerinski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2023 at 07:40
There are no 3 stars albums for me in that list, all of them are 5 or 4 stars.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2023 at 07:36

Then I'm curious, Paul, how many of the top 30 albums are you fond of?
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nogbad_The_Bad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2023 at 07:36
Ok here's mine

5 Star
King Crimson - Larks Tongues In Aspic

4.66 Star
Pink Floyd - Animals
King Crimson - Red
VDGG - Godbluff
Frank Zappa - Hot Rats
VDGG - Pawn Hearts
Pink Floyd - WYWH
Jethro Tull - TAAB
PFM - Per Un Amico

4.33 Star
Yes - CTTE
GG - IAGH
KC - ITCOTCK
JT - Aqualung
Genesis - Foxtrot
Harmonium - Les Cinq Saisons
Yes - Relayer
Yes - Fragile

4 Star
Camel - Mirage
PF - DSOTM

3.66 Star
Banco - Io Sono..
PFM - Storia...
Rush - Moving Pictures
Genesis - Nursery Crymes
Anglagard - Hybris
Banco - Darwin

3.33 Star
Genesis - SEBTP
Camel - Moonmadness
Rush - Hemispheres
Rush - A Farewell...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2023 at 07:22
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

From PA's Top 30 list, these are the 5-star albums that would be in my Top 30 too:-

Camel - Moonmadness
Genesis - Selling England by the Pound
King Crimson - In the Court of the Crimson King
Pink Floyd - Dark Side of the Moon
YES - The Quest (in place of Close to the Edge)

LOL

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2023 at 06:56
Even my non-favorites are of high quality at least seven out of ten. No other order than the stars given:

*****
Red
In The Court Of The Crimson King
Pawn Hearts
Nursery Cryme
Mirage
Aqualung
Storia Di Un Minuto
H to E, Who Am The Only One

**** 1/2
Godbluff
Moonmadness
Lark's Tongues In Aspic

****
Per Un Amico
Close To The Edge
Wish You Were Here
Thick as a Brick
Foxtrot
Selling England By The Pound
Fragile
Darwin!
Hot Rats
A Kind Of Blue
Io sono nato libero
The Dark Side Of The Moon
Relayer

*** 1/2
Animals
A Farewell To Kings
Moving Pictures
Hybris
Hemispheres
In A Glass House
Si On Avait ..
Birds Of Fire
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2023 at 06:37
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

In my opinion, a good way of re-arranging PA's top 30 would be to put more weight on the number of ratings.
it's fine, because the least number of ratings (+ reviews) is 1100 or so. Just have a look at the number of ratings for each album and you'll see. 

So, I should maybe show what I mean. Wink

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2023 at 06:23
Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

...
2) In The Court Of... King Crimson
5) Banco: Darwin
7) PFM: Storia di un minuto
9) FZappa: Hot Rats
11) VdGG: Godbluff
18) Genesis: Selling England
24) Camel: Mirage
30) GG: In a Glass House.
...

Hi,

I love all these ... equally, and it's really hard to decide. So I ended up with a Baker's Dozen!

Only sad thing is that not everything can be included. My other choices to add:

AD2: Dance of the Lemmings
Ange: Au Dela Du Delire
Ryuichi Sakamoto: Beauty
Sadistic Mika Band: Hot Menu
Egberto Gismonti: No Caipira. (Although many might think this is "jazz" but it really isn't. It's more "classical" than anything, and it is a beauty and then some.)


Edited by moshkito - May 12 2023 at 06:23
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nogbad_The_Bad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2023 at 05:45
Yeah there's no album's in the top 30 with less than 1000 ratings so there's currently no 'new' albums jumping up into the list with distorted ratings. 

Even the Wobbler album from '17 in 31st has 800 ratings which is a good number. The first one with a 'low' number is Gorguts in 64th with 229. In that case the QWR does the job its meant to do dragging down its average rating from 4.39 (which would be good for 18th without weighting) to 4.25.


Edited by Nogbad_The_Bad - May 12 2023 at 05:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2023 at 05:22
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:


In my opinion, a good way of re-arranging PA's top 30 would be to put more weight on the number of ratings.

it's fine, because the least number of ratings (+ reviews) is 1100 or so. Just have a look at the number of ratings for each album and you'll see. 


Edited by Cristi - May 12 2023 at 05:48
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2023 at 04:35

In my opinion, a good way of re-arranging PA's top 30 would be to put more weight on the number of ratings.
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zwordser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2023 at 03:51
Close to what it is now, but with Relayer at the top, Aqualung at the bottom and maybe Per Un Amico a little higher.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2023 at 03:50
It's not about quality to me, it's about taste and qualities -- qualities especially in the case of Miles Davis' Kind of Blue which is out of place in a progressive rock top list whether one loves it or not. I have no problem with rearranging a list to one's taste; not a matter of if its worthy or not generally to me, although not all may be equally relevant to a particular list, and I like some algorithms for calculating the ratings and rankings more than others. And sometimes there has been manipulation when it comes to the lists, but I don't see that in the top 30 now.

Anyway, my top one from the top 30 is Van der Graaf Generator's Pawn Hearts and Miles Davis' Kind of Blue is the only one there that has irked me. I'm happy to have Miles Davis in JRF, I think it's quality jazz album and a real classic of jazz, and I'm fine with people loving it, but that highlights the issue to me of putting whole discographies in one category (and even if one does that, including whole discographies). Also, some relatively recent ones that sometimes quickly get catapulted into top lists have concerned me, but as I said, this is not an issue now with the top 30.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2023 at 03:32
From PA's Top 30 list, these are the 5-star albums that would be in my Top 30 too:-

Camel - Moonmadness
Genesis - Selling England by the Pound
King Crimson - In the Court of the Crimson King
Pink Floyd - Dark Side of the Moon
YES - The Quest (in place of Close to the Edge)
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