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Give me your top list of endgame prog artists |
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chopper ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 13 2005 Location: Essex, UK Status: Offline Points: 20033 |
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Yep, I understand end game, I know what a rabbit hole is, I've read Alice in Wonderland, I'm just not sure what he's asking in terms of prog artists and albums.
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Nogbad_The_Bad ![]() Forum & Site Admin Group ![]() ![]() RIO/Avant/Zeuhl & Eclectic Team Joined: March 16 2007 Location: Boston Status: Offline Points: 21343 |
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I personally have a bunch of stuff I'd consider at the edges of my personal collection but they are certainly not the endgame, I'm continuing to explore. |
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Ian
Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
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BaldJean ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: May 28 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10387 |
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Friede is the chess expert; I will put her on under my name. This is Friede. In chess there is the so-called "Fifty moves rule". Article 5.2e of the official FIDE chess rules states: "A player can claim a draw if no capture has been made and no pawn has been moved in the last fifty moves". The term "move" means one player completing a turn followed by the other player completing a turn. If his claim turns out to be true the referee calls the game a draw. The idea behind this rule is to prevent a player from needlessly drawing out the game in the hope of some mistake by his opponent. Article 9.3 of the rules then clarifies the procedure in which this is done: "The game is drawn, upon a correct claim by the player having the move, if:
a. he writes his move on his scoresheet and declares to the arbiter his intention to
make this move, which shall result in the last 50 moves having been made by each
player without the movement of any pawn and without any capture, or
b. the last 50 consecutive moves have been made by each player without the
movement of any pawn and without any capture". There are other rules for reaching a draw too. Of special interest is rule 9.2: "The game is drawn upon a correct claim by the player having the move, when the same
position, for at least the third time (not necessarily by a repetition of moves):
a. is about to appear, if he first writes his move on his scoresheet and declares to the
arbiter his intention to make this move, or
b. has just appeared, and the player claiming the draw has the move.
Positions as in (a) and (b) are considered the same, if the same player has the move,
pieces of the same kind and colour occupy the same squares, and the possible moves of
all the pieces of both players are the same.
Positions are not the same if a pawn that could have been captured en passant can no
longer be captured in this manner. When a king or a rook is forced to move, it will lose its
castling rights, if any, only after it is moved". This rule is of special interest because of the famous 1972 world championship match between Boris Spassky and Bobby Fisher. In one of the games of this match one of the players (I don't remember which one) claimed this, and the other agreed. However, the 3rd time the position was reached it was not with the same player having the right of move (which makes a huge difference in chess, especially in the endgame. For more information look up "Zugzwang", a Germanism in the English language). So technically this rule could not be applied. But of course the two players always have the right to call the game a draw if both agree. As to "checkmates always becoming a reality": This is a very stupid movie device which always annoys me, especially when the player who was just checkmated looks surprised. In reality players realize they can't avoid being checkmated way ahead and give up the game. But of course this is not as dramatic as a sudden checkmate.
Edited by BaldJean - June 27 2022 at 12:45 |
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Moonchild88 ![]() Forum Newbie ![]() ![]() Joined: November 12 2019 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3 |
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This is correct. Like you probably wouldn't recommend somebody listen to Sedmina or Gilgamesh as their introduction to prog, you start with Yes, move on to Camel, then King Crimson, and so on. So how far down this path of the weird and obscure do you think YOU personally have gone, and what are those albums.
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JD ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: February 07 2009 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 18446 |
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At any rate, down the rabbit hole and endgames, again, very different things so they really shouldn't be paired in this way. But that's splitting hares. (tee hee, see what I did there)
Edited by JD - June 27 2022 at 11:58 |
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BaldJean ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: May 28 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10387 |
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I beg to differ. the endgame is the final stage, but not the end itself. in theory it could go on and on. but I think in conjunction with "down the rabbit hole" "endgame" rather means "something very far out and unknown"
Edited by BaldJean - June 27 2022 at 11:48 |
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siLLy puPPy ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic Joined: October 05 2013 Location: SFcaUsA Status: Offline Points: 15347 |
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I guess the endgame prog artists are the ones who died. The end.
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JD ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: February 07 2009 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 18446 |
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Well for starters, according to this very site... But the very question itself is invalid. An Endgame, by definition, is an ending. Progressive, by definition, is a continuous journey forward. Hence the paradox, can you get to the end of something that is always moving forward? I say nope. Someone is going to come along at some point and blow us all away. I live for that day.
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BaldJean ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: May 28 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10387 |
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perhaps this 1970 album from Germany. not in the archives, so definitely pretty much down the rabbit hole: ![]() Inga and Dagmar, by the way, are Inga Rumpf of the German bands Frumpy and Atlantis and Dagmar Krause of Slapp Happy, Henry Cow and Art Bears. or perhaps this 1971 album from Australia. also not in the archives: ![]() Edited by BaldJean - June 27 2022 at 11:36 |
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Nogbad_The_Bad ![]() Forum & Site Admin Group ![]() ![]() RIO/Avant/Zeuhl & Eclectic Team Joined: March 16 2007 Location: Boston Status: Offline Points: 21343 |
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Maybe "Once you've reached Weasel Walter there's nowhere else to go"
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Ian
Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
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Psychedelic Paul ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: September 16 2019 Location: Nottingham, U.K Status: Online Points: 43665 |
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I assumed "endgame" was a chess reference, in which case I recommend the Opening Move in Gryphon's "Red Queen to Gryphon Three" album. ![]() |
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nick_h_nz ![]() Collaborator ![]() ![]() Prog Metal / Heavy Prog Team Joined: March 01 2013 Location: Suffolk, UK Status: Offline Points: 6737 |
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This is pretty much why, although this is now the third post I’ve made in this thread, I’ve not named any artist/band/album. For any one rabbit hole I do find the bottom of, there are hundreds of others out there to explore. And we all know how rabbits multiply, so the number of rabbit holes is really infinite… That is my biggest problem with the term “endgame” as it definitely seems to imply something that I simply don’t believe in. There are plenty of rabbit holes, but no endgame in sight for me… |
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Nogbad_The_Bad ![]() Forum & Site Admin Group ![]() ![]() RIO/Avant/Zeuhl & Eclectic Team Joined: March 16 2007 Location: Boston Status: Offline Points: 21343 |
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The trouble is I don't believe there is a bottom to the rabbit hole. Every new discovery leads me to other artists and bands.
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Ian
Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
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siLLy puPPy ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic Joined: October 05 2013 Location: SFcaUsA Status: Offline Points: 15347 |
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I have no friggin idea what this thead is. You need to explain it better. I agree with Nick though about geography. I have discovered so many talented musicians by just scouring the archives of RYM and looking for artists from lesser known parts of the world. The West pretty much monopolizes the music industry in many ways but if you actually look deeper in various far flung nations of the world, you will find bands equal or even better than the more famous ones that everybody raves about. In some cases the famous bands simply stole ideas from other bands from poorer nations. I'll have to check out that Argentine band.
Edited by siLLy puPPy - June 27 2022 at 09:08 |
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nick_h_nz ![]() Collaborator ![]() ![]() Prog Metal / Heavy Prog Team Joined: March 01 2013 Location: Suffolk, UK Status: Offline Points: 6737 |
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I am incredibly surprised to see so little understanding. While the term “endgame” is not one I would have used, nor understood without context, I assumed the idea of falling down a rabbit hole was fairly universal. Not because I expect everyone to understand English, and especially not because I assume every non-English speaker to understand every English idiom, but simply because of the idea of falling down a rabbit hole (as per Alice in Wonderland) does seem to be usually understood by those I know for whom English is not their native tongue.
I assume endgame simply to mean what is found at the bottom of whatever rabbit hole one has fallen down. I could list many, but as per my previous post, it would depend entirely on which rabbit hole I were describing, as there have been many, most of which have taken me to completely different destinations. |
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someone_else ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() VIP Member Joined: May 02 2008 Location: Going Bananas Status: Offline Points: 24652 |
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Lucky is he who finds a prog album at the bottom of a rabbit hole. On one classic prog album this is sung, as many listeners know: Run, rabbit, run Dig that hole, forget the sun And when at last the work is done Don't sit down, it's time to dig another one Quite a few holes to go, I presume. I don't know what to make of "endgame". I think I visit a golf course and see what's in hole 18
![]() Edited by someone_else - June 27 2022 at 08:14 |
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Psychedelic Paul ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: September 16 2019 Location: Nottingham, U.K Status: Online Points: 43665 |
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That makes three of us.
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Grumpyprogfan ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: July 09 2019 Location: Kansas City Status: Offline Points: 12450 |
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I think this is what the OP intended. You listen to Genesis, and that spurs interest in Gabriel's solo stuff or Phil when he played in Brand X, on and on down the rabbit hole. Or recommendations the Zon, bandcamp, or pandora, give... if you enjoyed this you might enjoy this. If I interpreted wrong, sorry.
For me... Marco Minnemann, Mike Keneally, Hiromi, Bubblemath, French TV, Helmet of Gnats, and The Aristocrats come to mind. |
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Cristi ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Crossover / Prog Metal Teams Joined: July 27 2006 Location: wonderland Status: Online Points: 45776 |
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I didn't understand either.
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chopper ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 13 2005 Location: Essex, UK Status: Offline Points: 20033 |
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Sorry, it doesn't make sense to me. What is an endgame prog artist?
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