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Objectivity in rating albums |
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suitkees 
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Joined: July 19 2020 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 9050 |
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 Posted: March 20 2022 at 07:50 |
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 This made my day ! I'm picturing you doing this in the kitchen... probably with some air guitar too! ***** 5-star rating from me!  |
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The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
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wiz_d_kidd
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Joined: January 13 2018 Location: EllicottCityMD Status: Offline Points: 1423 |
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Posted: March 20 2022 at 08:38 |
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These were an attempt by me at describing the characteristics of music to aid in the understanding of "genre" -- e.g. why does Country music sound different from Rap? There must be some definable attributes, because we all recognize Country music when we hear it, and we recognize Rap when we hear it. Nonetheless, some of these attributes could be used to assess the quality of a piece of music, but not entirely objectively. Someone once said "Music is organized sound". I would extend that notion and say "Music is organized sound that is performed with a purpose". Good music, therefore, must be music that is well organized, has a good sound, is performed well, and achieves a purpose. Organizational quality entails: Composition (melody/harmony, verse/chorus, tension/resolution), Texture (layering/density), Arrangement (ordering and assignment of the parts), Originality (new/derivative), Accessibility (easy/tough listening). Sound quality entails: Dynamics (soft/loud), Tonality (unintentional harshness/distortion/noise), Mixing/Recording (flatness/varying focus/room acoustics) Performance quality entails: Musicianship (amateur/virtuoso), Vocal ability (strained/out-of-tune/melismatic) Purpose entails the conveyance of Mood, Imagery, and Emotion. All of these are somewhat objective in that they give the rater something very specific to assess to come up with their rating. BUT -- if by "objective" you mean that it is a scientifically measurable attribute that no two people could possibly disagree on, then NO, none of these attributes will ever be objective (by that definition). That being said, I think that anyone who is a sufficiently skilled listener, or perhaps trained musician, can assess these characteristics and assign a rating -- regardless of whether they like the music or not. And that's the key to doing somewhat objective ratings -- removing one's likes and dislikes from the assessment and rating the underlying attributes of the music as fairly and impartially as possible. The problem here on PA is that you can't count on the rater/reviewer being a skilled listener, let alone a trained musician. And many folks will simple rate an album according to their personal likes and dislikes. So while a partially objective rating might be possible, we're unlikely to see that here in PA. |
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JD
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Posted: March 20 2022 at 09:38 |
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^wiz_d_kidd Wrote All of these are somewhat objective in that they give the rater
something very specific to assess to come up with their rating. BUT --
if by "objective" you mean that it is a scientifically measurable
attribute that no two people could possibly disagree on, then NO, none
of these attributes will ever be objective (by that definition). That is exactly and the only definition of Objective. Why aren't people getting that? Your "somewhat objective" statement is moot for this discussion, may as well say "somewhat pregnant". Also, as a side note. I notice on the previous page @moshkito used a lot of comments that say "JD wrote:" about rating criteria. Just to be clear, I was quoting Paul there. Those are NOT MY criteria. My criteria for the few reviews I've done are : Production Song Writing Originality Performance General Impressions Edited by JD - March 20 2022 at 09:39 |
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nick_h_nz
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Posted: March 20 2022 at 09:52 |
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JD, I would think the majority of people commenting understand what objectivity is. I am not convinced David understands himself, as he keeps going on about the definition of objectivity in philosophy, which is the general definition of objectivity understood by most people. (And, in fact, when it comes to objectivity, it’s not so much the definition that is argued, but whether it is possible at all for objectivity to exist. Others have posted previously philosophical arguments as to why objectivity cannot exist. But presuming it can, David is yet to show how he is able to use objectivity when rating albums, whether by his choice of criteria, or otherwise. It’s kind of amusing, which is why I continue to follow this thread even though nothing new has been presented in quite some time. (Hence my deliberate quoting of an old post of mine. It seems to be something David likes to do, to repost his older posts, so I thought I might join him.) |
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JD
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Posted: March 20 2022 at 10:00 |
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^I agree 100%, but I hate circular arguments, so I'm coming very close to bowing out of this one.
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Archisorcerus
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Posted: March 20 2022 at 10:04 |
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Cambridge's online dictionary says that objectivity is: the fact of being based on facts and not influenced by personal beliefs or feelings
Merriam-Webster's online dictionary says that objectivity is: the quality or character of being objective : lack of favoritism toward one side or another : freedom from bias And, by being objective in rating artworks does not mean creating universal objective criteria for all the critics to conform. It simply means, you utilize objectivity while giving ratings to albums. The only potential problem here can be the word "facts" in Cambridge's definition. But, there are objective facts you can consider while assessing an album. For instance: Yngwie Malmsteen plays the guitar faster than David Gilmour in their respective albums. Nobody can falsify this, I think. |
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nick_h_nz
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Posted: March 20 2022 at 10:17 |
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^ Without doubt! I think it is not so much whether or not objectivity can exist in considering an album, so much as to how much of a degree it can be useful in rating an album. Your example of Malmsteen and Gilmour is probably inarguably objective. Malmsteen plays faster than Gilmour in their respective albums. But how do you take that into account when rating their albums? You probably don’t. Regardless of how much objectivity occurs in any review on PA (and some are definitely more factual than others), it is much harder to argue objectivity in the ratings.
But, as JD says, it’s a bit of circular argument at this point, and as you have said, you don’t like repeating yourself. I kind of liked your example of attempting objectivity if you were reviewing a djent albums, given you are not a fan of that genre. I think that is indicative of a lot of what is being discussed here - attempts at being objective. Whether or not they are actually objective has been called into question by posters far more eloquent and educated than me. Intersubjectivty is accepted as objectivity, or at least an approximation of it, by some, and not by others. It all comes down to how dogmatic one is with their definition of objective, I suppose. |
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suitkees
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Posted: March 20 2022 at 10:19 |
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^^ & ^ & everything else... Dictionaries are nice, but often very much failing when it comes
to complex and/or philosophical notions. David himself referred to a
much more interesting article from the
Internet Encyclopedia of
Philosophy, but only quoted what suited him and didn't get further
into it (e.g. points 2e and 2f of the same article). |
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The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
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Archisorcerus
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Posted: March 20 2022 at 10:21 |
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@nick_h_nz
I had already given examples that can affect ratings, at least mine. I also explained that even though Therion's album entitled Theli is one of my absolute favourite albums, I would only give it a 3-star (or 3.5, if possible) as it is flawed. The drum playing is lacking too much precision. The instrumentation, in general, is also quite flawed.
Edited by Archisorcerus - March 20 2022 at 10:23 |
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nick_h_nz
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Posted: March 20 2022 at 10:25 |
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Oh yes, i know. But I was using your Malmsteen/Gilmour example as an example of how something that is probably inarguably objective in a review is not really able to be used objectively in a rating. (As per the argument Kees also makes in the post above.) And, by your use of inverted commas around the word objective on your takes, I’m assuming you recognise that these takes are nowhere near as inarguably objective as your Malmsteen/Gilmour example. |
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David_D
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Posted: March 20 2022 at 10:25 |
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I can tell you, wiz_d_kidd, this is much more of very well clarified rating criteria I could dream of to see as a result of this thread. And I agree with you concerning their character, and will call them "partly objective". Thank you very much for this so good contribution of yours.  Edited by David_D - March 20 2022 at 13:54 |
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Archisorcerus
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Posted: March 20 2022 at 10:28 |
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No, when one is out of tune, s/he is out of tune. When a drummer lacks precision, s/he lacks precision. Now that you're too prone to take this too "scientifically", a failed scientific experiment is a failed scientific axperiment. Fact (and word). |
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nick_h_nz
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Posted: March 20 2022 at 10:35 |
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In high school, my science teacher always drilled into me that “there is no such thing as a failed experiment - only an unexpected outcome”. |
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Archisorcerus
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Posted: March 20 2022 at 10:37 |
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^ It is like, "I never lose. I either win or I learn." Well, these don't make sense to me. TBH. Of course out of a "failed experiment", you learn what not to do. If you lose, you take lessons and it may add to your improvement. Losing, failing etc. can be fruitful. But, it if it is a failed experiment, it is a failed experiment. If you lose, you lose. Nothing to discuss here.
Edited by Archisorcerus - March 20 2022 at 10:39 |
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suitkees
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Posted: March 20 2022 at 10:38 |
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Being "out of tune" is a typical example of a conventional appreciation of music, and thus subjective.
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The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
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Archisorcerus
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Posted: March 20 2022 at 10:40 |
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If you "try" to stay in the tune but fail in that, it is a fail. If you do punk and don't give a f**k, it is not. Or if you do avant-garde stuff, you can challenge the conventions. If a drummer tries to play perfectly but cannot, it is a fail. If s/he doesn't give a f**k like a punker, it is not. Edited by Archisorcerus - March 20 2022 at 10:42 |
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nick_h_nz
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Posted: March 20 2022 at 10:41 |
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A lot of Eastern music is considered out of tune to Western ears, because it is microtonal. Georgia, for example, has a polyphonic folk tradition, and a lot of people who hear a talented ensemble of Georgian singers query whether they are in tune. The idea of what is in or out of tune can definitely be very subjective. |
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Archisorcerus
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Posted: March 20 2022 at 10:44 |
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^ I explained the "failing" notion. Please try to understand my main points. I already know that the Western musical world is not an exhaustive musical universe. As a Turk, I probably know it better than you.
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nick_h_nz
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Posted: March 20 2022 at 10:46 |
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^ I was just agreeing with Kees. It wasn’t directed at you. I’m well aware that as Turk you will likely know more about Eastern music than me.
It was more a point that a lot of what can be considered objective fails to be so when looked at outside a Western hegemony. |
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suitkees
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Posted: March 20 2022 at 10:49 |
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Exactly !
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The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
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moshkito wrote: