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Topic ClosedRussia/Ukraine tensions - Any concern?
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SteveG View Drop Down
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Points: 20617 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2022 at 19:21
Originally posted by NotAProghead NotAProghead wrote:

^ <span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">Apparently you are okay with your </span><span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">government </span><span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">provoking my</span><span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;"> government to kill innocent citizens.</span>
<span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">Discussion becomes pointless.</span>
This is what happens when you listen to Putin's propaganda. At least some in your country know the truth. The ones who are risking being thrown into jails for life for protesting this immoral war.

Edited by SteveG - February 27 2022 at 19:21
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Points: 7957 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2022 at 19:32
^ I quoted and gave the link to a British article to show that things are not that simple as they may seem. Now I read that I "listen to Putin's propaganda". Too predictable. 
Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)
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Points: 10680 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2022 at 19:40
Propaganda comes in from all sides: US, EU, Russia etc, its what they are good at.

Propaganda aside: Now its time to ask a simple question: Do the people of Ukraine deserve what is going on in their country right now?
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Points: 20617 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2022 at 19:45
Originally posted by NotAProghead NotAProghead wrote:

^ I quoted and gave the link to a British article to show that things are not that simple as they may seem. Now I read that I "<span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">listen to Putin's propaganda</span>". Too predictable. 
I can find plenty of different opinions for different situations and events. Even some I might agree with at first glance. But that doesn't mean that they are all true. You will believe what you want to believe, just like most humans. That's why we have the world we inhabit now.
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Points: 7957 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2022 at 20:19
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Propaganda aside: Now its time to ask a simple question: Do the people of Ukraine deserve what is going on in their country right now?

Obviously, the majority of people don't. While past and present Ukranian politicians are not innocent victims.

While one country (I quote that article again) turns [another country] "into an enemy by insulting a great and proud country with greed, unearned superiority cynicism, contempt and mistrust" wars are inevitable.

Strangely, nobody asked here the old question: cui prodest? (who benefits?).
Putin and Russia? - No.
EU - no.
Only US. Is it just a coincidence?
Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)
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Points: 10680 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2022 at 20:30
^ I'm not sure I understand all of that, but let me ask you this.
When my country invaded Iraq I protested, can you do the same against your own government when they kill innocent Ukrainians? Do you even want to protest, or do you find the killing justified?

Edited by Easy Money - February 27 2022 at 20:53
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Points: 7957 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2022 at 20:56
^ Is it that hard to understand? I guess you pretend.
Only your country benefits in this war. Is it just a coincidence or the war is mainly a result of US actions? 
I think the latter.
Because of this I don't protest against my own government. Don't tell me I support kiliing people, I'm Putin's agent etc. As I said before, US didn't leave Putin good solutions.
Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)
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Points: 10680 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2022 at 21:00
US benefits nothing from this war. War only brings suffering.
In this instance war only brings suffering for the citizens of Ukraine.
I am opposed to US colonialism and Russian colonialism. You apparently are okay if it fits your nationalistic outlook.



Edited by Easy Money - February 27 2022 at 21:05
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Points: 10680 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2022 at 21:20
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

A lot of Europeans have already heard this soundtrack, but here are the last words of a defiant Ukrainian:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Y2iVHUMZhg

Time to replay this one
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Points: 16892 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2022 at 21:20
The US does benefit from this war. It makes Europe less independent and more dependent on US military protection.
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Points: 10680 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2022 at 21:22
Originally posted by King of Loss King of Loss wrote:

The US does benefit from this war. It makes Europe less independent and more dependent on US military protection.
That has not happened at all. Explain how you came to this conclusion.
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Points: 16892 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2022 at 21:25
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by King of Loss King of Loss wrote:

The US does benefit from this war. It makes Europe less independent and more dependent on US military protection.
That has not happened at all. Explain how you came to this conclusion.

It's self-explanatory. Just think about it. Russia attacks, a lot of these European countries have to commit more to NATO for protection, which is basically run by the US. How is that not making them more dependent on the US? 

Also, the US benefits from this war as it seriously weakens the Russian-speaking world, which has been the nemesis of the US-UK since the days of the Tsars. But they might have given China more power now because they will get Russia's natural resources for a discounted rate.
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Points: 10680 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2022 at 21:36
^ International politics aside: As you can tell from my previous posts and the title of this thread we are in, I am mostly concerned about working people and their families in Ukraine. Please explain to me how the points you raise help them.

Edited by Easy Money - February 27 2022 at 21:53
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Points: 16892 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2022 at 21:52
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

^ I'm only concerned about working people and their families in Ukraine. Please explain to me how the points you raise help them.

They've been f**ked for a while now. Remember shock therapy that happened in a lot of Post-soviet states? That compounded with the collapse of the Soviet Union, plus US meddling in the region, this Russo-Ukrainian conflict has created a perfect storm of conditions for a failed state. Not that the US government or any other government or even the corrupt Ukrainian government really cares about the welfare of the average Ukrainians.
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Points: 10680 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2022 at 22:04
^ Well maybe these are people you read about in the news, but these are friends of mine, family relations and friends of friends and distant relatives.

People are trying to get hold of each other in Ukraine while communications are shut off and refugees jam the borders looking for cover. Not just Ukraine, but Belarus and elsewhere near Russia. Its pure chaos in the countries that border Russia right now. Even some Russians are getting out, afraid of what might what happen next.

I detest the conditions like these that my own country has created in Central America, Africa, the Middle East and elsewhere, and likewise I detest the cynical excuses from those who would justify what is happening now.

Edited by Easy Money - February 27 2022 at 22:07
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Points: 2707 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2022 at 00:10
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

^ Since the 1950s the biggest war monger in the world has been the USA. The citizens of this country do what they can stop this

I'm not sure about the past. My American professor teacher in my M.A. education said that; they, the American people, really believe and think that they are/were going to Iraq etc. to do them good. The majority of your public, it must be, for sure. I believe this must be different to a relatively great extent today. The internet age must have changed it. Now that one is not bound to the TVs and newspapers, the majority of which lies/lied.

Edited by Archisorcerus - February 28 2022 at 00:19
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Points: 556 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2022 at 02:58
Not bound by TV and Newspapers ? Maybe it was better then>? Surely you are making fun. 

It is worse now! Social media? Twitter, Instagram, Influencers? 

All the intellects I knew in my life (and had the displeasure of acquaintance), had one thing in common. Manipulation, control, and lies, and using fear, prejudice, and the ultimate agenda of control.

My Uncle Max had a Tattoo on his arm. He was a watch maker from the eastern block. He had a huge mustache and a kind smile. I was so young, like 10 or so. He repaired watches with a large magnifying glass. 

I was so happy to be left in his care while my parents went away for a while. 

His past was in Russia or Ukraine, I did not know where except he looked like a Cossack. 

I asked him why he had a tattoo on his arm and he told me not to mention it to my parents. It was a number, like a light blurred ink black blue bar code number but fading through the years.

I asked my parents if Uncle Max had a tattoo. They said, no he did not. I asked if he went through the holocaust? They told me no.

Can you believe my Uncle Max told me the truth and no one knew? 

We need to come together. Russians and Ukrainians. 

Stop this now, we are all the same flesh and blood
I'm sorry, if you were right, I'd agree with you. Robin Williams.
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Points: 2707 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2022 at 03:08
^ Yes, I strongly believe that there are far more "woke" people now, thanks to the internet. I'm not making fun. Social media... Twitter is the best internet platform that I know of. One has to learn to use it fruitfully to get that. Facebook is a waste of time. I never used Instagram. Influencers suck. All in all, I agree with you, but not in the sense that you might expect. Crowds suck, have always sucked, and will probably suck for eternity. I hope I'll be proven wrong.
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Points: 4241 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2022 at 03:38
Originally posted by King of Loss King of Loss wrote:

The US does benefit from this war. It makes Europe less independent and more dependent on US military protection.


The opposite of this has happened: Since the end of the Cold War European countries have allowed their defence systems to deteriorate assuming the USA would just step in in case of a conflict, and it wasn't until this crisis came along that almost every European government agreed to increase its defence spending so as to be less reliant on the US (especially with the possibility of a return to the White House by a certain orange-hued lunatic with a poorly disguised disdain for NATO or any sort of commitment to foreign allies). I really, really wish it weren't necessary but it's naïve at this point to think that we shouldn't be prepared.
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Points: 46838 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2022 at 04:28
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

The Russian idiot has now put his nuclear defenses on stand by. Can this get any worse?
Yes, I think it will.

as do I my friend...  as regards to later comment to Eugene's thoughts (disappointing).. and killing them all.  Don't blame the soldiers.. blame those that sent them there.   I can see Putin ending up hanging from a telephone pole at the end of this.  Do the Russians really see the Ukrainians as their enemies.. 

laughter... between enemies???  



so is the plan now to pull a Grozny on Kiev .. at what point do we see a mutiny? At what point do the Russians themselves awaken and ask themselves.. why are we sending our sons to die in some pointless war against people who are not our enemies.. while he lives in his golden palace dreaming of a past that .. is in the past.

I think Putin made a huge mistake here... a fatal one and unwilling or unable to back down and look weak will continue this unwinable war until the army, the oligarchs, or the common people themselves ... remove Putin.


and that is the scary part as far as getting worse..


Edited by micky - February 28 2022 at 04:29
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