Russia/Ukraine tensions - Any concern?

omphaloskepsis wrote: Back in December, I pointed out Putin's demands. One of which is that Ukraine could never join NATO.   Why didn't Biden give into that demand?  Now, Russia can take All of Ukraine...if he so wishes. Sure, it can be argued that Russia would have attacked Ukraine anyway.

I was going to address this with a reasoned argument but your philosophy is so misled it's fascinating.  You're saying Biden should've pretended he'd prevent Ukraine from joining NATO ~ a completely idiotic and unjustified position ~ so that we'd buy some time before Putin did something really bad.

Yeah... that's not how things work with tyrannical despots.   What you wanna do is ask them politely to stop and then if they don't, kick them square in the balls, knock them on the ground, get on top of them, and make them ask for mercy.   It's a lot like handling a schoolyard bully.   They only understand and respect strength, much like Mussolini... and Trump.   I mean, Trump is a fat girly man who'd run away and pay someone else to fight for him, but you get the point.

Steve, but this is what the empires do. Fortunately for the USA, they only has three... large enough countries on their continent. I understand the property issues, the unpaid debts and so on - but still why did the USA try to topple down the Cuban power, why did the USA mutually hate Venezuela? The Cuban and Venezuela people decided so - why some foreign force decides for them? Because the USA is the empire and can't bear any potential enemies on its borders. The USA is surrounded by Canada, Mexico and the oceans, mostly. Russia has been invaded numerous times in its history, it is surrounded by lots of different countries. They act like that. I don't like the idea, at all. There's nothing pleasant in being "liberated" or "protected" when I've never asked for liberation or protection. Russia is doing a very big mistake. But! You all have to understand that, rightly or wrongly, NATO is seen in Russia as an enemy, as an aggressive military alliance which can shift from defensive to offensive in a few hours... Russia is one of the last empires in the world. Empires act like that. It is not pleasant for me but I try to be objective. 

I have had some conversations with some Central Europeans, particularly Slovaks. They were happy to join the EU and NATO because they were told at the time that everybody would be as prosperous as the German people, and other stuff. In result, as my Slovak friend told me their country's bosses indeed bought themselves "luxury cars, luxury laptops, luxury handwatches" - and the ordinary Slovaks like her, have to work abroad, in her case in Ireland, to survive... Her colleagues at the Irish hotel are a Polish girl and a Latvian girl - those proud Poles and Balts who no longer bow to Russia... Instead they must bow to any visitor at an Irish hotel, including Russians... So, you know, all those talks that every country may join any military defensive alliance or any trade organisation just because everybody's equal... What's the use for a certain country and what's the use for the whole organisation? - this must be the first question, especially if it concerns military alliances. Were there any indicators that Russia somehow threatened Poland or Czech Republic or Hungary in March 1999? Tell me of those indicators, anyone, would you please! Russia was poor, ruined, its army was ruined as well. Russia was ruled by a more or less democrate Boris Yeltsin. What were the reasons to include three formerly Soviet-controlled countries in the anti-Soviet military bloc? Just anticipations that some day Russia would return to its old habits? Then why aren't people of the former colonies of the British Empire afraid that one day the UK returns to its old habits? Maybe, because times are changing. What was suitable in Stalin era, was not suitable in Brezhnev one. 

I do not justify any sort of criminal behaviour. But I also know that a criminal shall not blame other criminals. It's God who judges and saints who may blame. I see no saints in this situation! 

I apologize if my previous message was a bit callous. My most heartfelt sympathy goes out to the people of Ukraine during this crisis; I hope Woon and other Ukrainian members manage to stay safe somehow.

I have no doubt that for Poles, Czechs and Balts the Soviet rule was totally inappropriate. Holding them under the Soviet umbrella was a mistake and a crime of the USSR. But I meant the other thing: it is often said that the people of any given country wished to join the EU and NATO... How many people, who were those people, how many people in those countries benefited from joining NATO and EU? Such generalizations are always a media trick and nothing else. Then, if the people massively wanted to join these organisations, did their expectations come true? What were those people told before their countries took a decision to join something? I suppose that in general it went like that: some bosses from the USA and Western Europe spent a few million dollars to bribe the countries' elites, the elites told their populations how great it is to be in the EU and NATO. End of the scheme. 

I meant quite that. 

Mr. Zelensky is a fine actor, he was the leader of the popular Ukrainian comedy troupe and the respective TV show. He is a successful comic actor, a successful manager, a fan of good movies (and a creator of various ones). I have no doubt he always wanted to film something like the Chaplin's speech in The Great Dictator - now he has done such a speech. I prefer his speech to Chaplin's - indeed, he must be proud of himself. Very touching and sincere. Bravo! Really! 

BUT! As it usually happens, the whole situation is a bit more complex. I'm not going to speak that much... Uhm... For example, like a year ago Zelensky met with Macron and among other things said to the latter that there were some positive things in the USSR - the Ukrainian society massively condemned him for that... There's of course freedom and democracy in Ukraine, more freedom and democracy than in Russia, but still there's a narrative corridor and anything that goes beyond its walls is massively accepted as a treason... There were the times when the corridor was much broader, actually... 

There are some nuances that matter here and contradict some things of what Mr. Zelensky said. Maybe he himself does not even comprehend those nuances and so firmly believes in every word he's saying. It's possible. 

Thank you! 

I absolutely agree that Putin is not an innocent victim and that Volodymyr Zelensky is definitely not a war criminal who deserve to be killed. 

I'm sorry but he was somehow elected. Isn't it a real democracy when the will of the people counts? If he doesn't honor so much - perhaps, it also means that many of your compatriots also do not honor those principles and ideals. Then perhaps there are two different USA's. 

Speaking of the political process, I do not think anyone without billions of dollars behind his back can become the president of the USA... So, it's not about caring for the ordinary people in any case. It's about finding the billions of dollars or finding someone who can lend them to you. The right things, powerful texts come next. First, one has to find billions of dollars. Can a person with an access to the nuclear weapons and the billions of dollars really care for someone who doesn't own either?