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snobb 
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: August 20 2009
Location: Vilnius,LT,EU
Status: Offline
Points: 3584
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 Posted: December 08 2021 at 06:13 |
 Sean Trane wrote:
BTW, my sister-in-law is half Russian (her uncle was a star dancer in the Bolshoi) , half Moldavian/Romanian from the Bessarabia region (now halfway in Ukraine) and she largely agrees with me. But most of her Russian family now live in Canada or Bavaria
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one fantastic thing about Russians is they are big patriots of their country, but at any possibility are trying to leave it for West :)))) we have here in my home town few thousands Russian families living constantly (I'm speaking about Russia citizens, not Lithuanians of Russian origin), and that number is growing fast. During the nice weekend evening in Old Town about one third of people walking speak Russian (Russia's Russian, not domestic one). But if you'll speak with some of them about Russia, almost everyone of them will say that Russia is best country in the world, and the West is "gay-ropa",rotten fascists. that is fantastic Eurasian illogicality - they adore their country, but just hate to live there because the life there is real sh..t 
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Lewian
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 09 2015
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 15151
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Posted: December 08 2021 at 06:22 |
Easy Money wrote:
Lewian wrote:
Easy Money wrote:
I visited East Germany in the early 80s and it was the most unhappy place i have ever seen, zero night life, zero anything except a bare existence and plenty of military parades for western tourists like myself.
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I don't know whom you met but I know lots of people who lived in East Germany at the time (I'm writing as a West German who didn't live that far from the old border). It wasn't a happy time but nightlife they had for sure! And there's some of that nostagia for that time, too, that Woon Deadn has mentioned, maybe not as much as in Russia, but still.
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I was in East Berlin, summer of 1983. It was dead as a doorknob by 8 pm. From my high rise hotel room I could see the nightlife on the west side.
1983 was near the end of soviet martial law in many countries, so maybe they were still under some restrictions. I would also imagine things were stricter in East Berlin than other parts of the country. |
Your experiences are very limited. True, there wasn't remotely as much nightlife as in the west, particularly people were not out on the streets in the night for reasons other than getting from A to B, and many people got up at 5:30 and didn't care. But there were pubs and bars and student clubs, and of course house parties. There was a curfew, as far as I know depending on the place and day of week at 23:00 or midnight. Maybe nobody was out after 8 where you were, I have no idea, but it's just not true that there wasn't any nightlife. (Same for Czechoslovakia & Poland by the way, in the eighties they had jazz clubs, I don't know much about how it was in other countries.)
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20414
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Posted: December 08 2021 at 06:29 |
snobb wrote:
Sean Trane wrote:
BTW, my sister-in-law is half Russian (her uncle was a star dancer in the Bolshoi) , half Moldavian/Romanian from the Bessarabia region (now halfway in Ukraine) and she largely agrees with me. But most of her Russian family now live in Canada or Bavaria |
one fantastic thing about Russians is they are big patriots of their country, but at any possibility are trying to leave it for West :))))
we have here in my home town few thousands Russian families living constantly (I'm speaking about Russia citizens, not Lithuanians of Russian origin), and that number is growing fast. During the nice weekend evening in Old Town about one third of people walking speak Russian (Russia's Russian, not domestic one). But if you'll speak with some of them about Russia, almost everyone of them will say that Russia is best country in the world, and the West is "gay-ropa",rotten fascists.
that is fantastic Eurasian illogicality - they adore their country, but just hate to live there because the life there is real sh..t |
BTW, this is even truer for their women, who will follow almost any stranger out of the country, just to escape the local males alcoholics. Seriously I pity Russian women , knowing the abuse they get everyday.
==================
in the case of my sister-in-law, they (whole family) arrived in 75 in Toronto - and TBH, the Romanian/Moldova side is dominant (their last name is not Russian-sounding at all), but they still think of the Ukrainians as savages.  
..
Edited by Sean Trane - December 08 2021 at 06:30
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Lewian
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 09 2015
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 15151
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Posted: December 08 2021 at 06:36 |
Sean Trane wrote:
But indeed, if Ukraine wants to get rid of the Eurasian plains (or more likely the people living there), than it should let it go. TBH, ever since the crisis was started by the EC, I've come to best solution is that the Ukrainian North-west should let go the Russian south-east (which incorporates Crimea in the south. This could appease the area (not likely, though), but if Ukraine still wants Nato or the EC, it won't do...... Unless the EC & Nato strike a deal or partnership with Moscow. |
You mean like giving Hitler the parts of Czechoslovakia where there was a strong German minority? The experience of what happened next does not look very promising to Ukraine. And Russia was involved in that, too.
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20414
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Posted: December 08 2021 at 07:46 |
Lewian wrote:
Sean Trane wrote:
But indeed, if Ukraine wants to get rid of the Eurasian plains (or more likely the people living there), than it should let it go. TBH, ever since the crisis was started by the EC, I've come to best solution is that the Ukrainian North-west should let go the Russian south-east (which incorporates Crimea in the south. This could appease the area (not likely, though), but if Ukraine still wants Nato or the EC, it won't do...... Unless the EC & Nato strike a deal or partnership with Moscow. |
You mean like giving Hitler the parts of Czechoslovakia where there was a strong German minority? The experience of what happened next does not look very promising to Ukraine. And Russia was involved in that, too.
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You know, after the two WW, in those regions, there were more millions of people displaced from where they lived than there were total dead (including in death camps) and frontiers/borders were moved and it still hasn't worked out. An yet, still valid IMHO for the ex-Yugoslavian republics and its sub-republics (Kosovo & Vojvodina).
Separate the belligerents, whenever possible, since they don't want to live together.  Separate the arseholes who don't want to deal with the other arseholes in front of them. 
Furthermore, in those same regions, there are still internal conflicts that can brew: Hungary, Slovakia and Romania have strong Gypsy/Tzigan/Roms issues as well.
Not to mention regional tensions inside the westerns countries like Ireland, GB (Scotland), Spain (Basque, Catalan), France (Corsican & Bretons), Belgium (Flemish & Walloons), Netherlands (Frisians), Italy (Sardinia & Sicily, Liga of the North) etc....
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10679
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Posted: December 08 2021 at 07:56 |
Re Lewian: You are right, I'm hardly an expert on nightlife in communist bloc countries. I was just sharing one of my experiences while visiting communist countries in the early 80s. I would be more than happy to hear you or anyone else's experiences while visiting, or living in an East European communist bloc country. I know at least one person in this thread grew up that way. 
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snobb
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: August 20 2009
Location: Vilnius,LT,EU
Status: Offline
Points: 3584
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Posted: December 08 2021 at 08:15 |
there generally were NO night life in Soviet Union, with few exception Poland or E.Germany looked as a dream for Soviet people, there were even jazz clubs in few cities  In my hometown (population around 500 000 at that time) there were up to 15 restaurants, which were often half-empty, but you needed to give 5 or 10 rubles to the old man on the door secretly and only after he could probably let you in (to compare - my mother's salary was around 60 rubles/month) There were a three vinyl LP shops in town, usually with some folk, lots of classics and some dusted Communist hymns on the shelves. On the day where new pop and rock albums were supplied there were plenty of people on the door for the time of the opening, you needed to wait sometimes two or three hours and to buy ABBA or The Beatles album (and I'm speaking about mid 80's!) if lucky. All borders were closed, to leave country for touristic trip you needed to receive so-called "External Passport" (everyone had regular passports(internal) which were valid only inside the SU). To receive that Internal Passport was an extra difficult mission, normally you needed to know some people in Communist structures to succeed. There was an illegal "black market" for rock music albums, imported as contraband, on the suburbs of town, I've been an active member when in University :). You could buy there for example a new Black Sabbath album at the price of 70-80 rubles (average Soviet monthly salary). Every month once or twice the militia made the raids catching illegal sellers/buyers and we tried to run off into closest forest to escape. The alcohol was extremely cheap comparing with other goods so main simple people entertainment was drinking - drinking a lot. Salaries on a big state factories have been paid twice a month, so these days you can see full town of drunk men returning slowly from their work home, sometimes sleeping on the grass in a town squares. True, Communist authorities were not all that happy because of total alcoholism, it has serious negative impact on economics, but from other hand multi-million population which was always half-drunk, wasn't worry about politics and future at all. Half-drunk Soviets were convenient for being ruled.
Edited by snobb - December 08 2021 at 08:35
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10679
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Posted: December 08 2021 at 08:33 |
^ Thank you. What about during martial law, such as in Poland 1981 to 1983, were there still clubs open during that time? I will be seeing a Polish friend this evening, so I will ask her as well. You two do have very similar recollections. Re the drinking you mention, this is what I saw in Yugoslavia, a lot of unemployed government supported people drinking very heavily, but they were a great bunch to party with. 
Edited by Easy Money - December 08 2021 at 08:36
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omphaloskepsis
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2011
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 6802
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Posted: December 08 2021 at 08:38 |
snobb wrote:
there generally were NO night life in Soviet Union, with few exception
Poland or E.Germany looked as a dream for Soviet people, there were even jazz clubs in few cities
In my hometown (population around 500 000 at that time) there were up to 15 restaurants, which were often half-empty, but you needed to give 5 or 10 rubles to the old man on the door secretly and only after he could probably let you in (to compare - my mother's salary was around 60 rubles/month)
There were a three vinyl LP shops in town, usually with some folk, lots of classics and some dusted Communist hymns on the shelves. On the day where new pop and rock albums were supplied there were plenty of people on the door for the time of the opening, you needed to wait sometimes two or three hours and to buy ABBA or The Beatles album (and I'm speaking about mid 80's!) if lucky.
All borders were closed, to leave country for touristic trip you needed to receive so-called "External Passport" (everyone had regular passports(internal) which were valid only inside the SU). To receive that Internal Passport was an extra difficult mission, normally you needed to know some people in Communist structures to succeed.
There was an illegal "black market" for rock music albums, imported as contraband, on the suburbs of town, I've been an active member when in University :). You could buy there for example a new Black Sabbath album at the price of 70-80 rubles (average Soviet monthly salary). Every month once or twice the militia made the raids catching illegal sellers/buyers and we tried to run off into closest forest to escape.
The alcohol was extremely cheap comparing with other goods so main simple people entertainment was drinking - drinking a lot. Salaries on a big state factories have been paid twice a month, so these days you can see full town of drunk men returning slowly from their work home, sometimes sleeping on the grass in a town squares.
True, Communist authorities were not all that happy because of total alcoholism, it has serious negative impact on economics, but from other hand multi-million population which was always half-drunk, wasn't worry about politics and future at all. Half-drunk Soviets were convenient for being ruled. |
That's exactly what my Russian, Polish, and Ukrainian friends told me. Rock Music and Blue Jeans were expensive.
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snobb
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: August 20 2009
Location: Vilnius,LT,EU
Status: Offline
Points: 3584
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Posted: December 08 2021 at 08:44 |
my grandma bought first TRUE blue jeans to me on a black market and paid 200 rubles (or 2,5 average monthly salaries of a Soviet man). it was Wrangler! 
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Woon Deadn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2010
Location: P
Status: Offline
Points: 1017
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Posted: December 08 2021 at 09:42 |
snobb wrote:
yeh, Brits urbanized India, where they are now? True, Indians still speak English o:)
the difference between British Empire and Russian Empire is mainly Brits bring to India Western civilization - technologies, industry, common organization. And they left in time when understood that India is no more their colony...
what Russian Empire gave to colonized Ukraine - Golodomor (death of few millions Ukrainians from hunger because Russian occupants took the foodstuff from Ukraine to Russia to support their own population), corruption (which is biggest problem in Ukraine till now), Eurasian culture of spiting on the streets and throwing garbage right where you are, alcoholism? And they still can't forgive that Ukraine don't want to be and Eurasian colony anymore? |
Sir, an inhabitant of a small Baltic country speaks with your mouth... Too offended to look up to the skies.
First, you haven't witnessed the level of alcohol consumption in Poland yet... They say, the very word vodka may be of Polish origin, by the way.
Second, Indians and other peoples from the region that want to achieve something in this world, pretty much speak English. Freddie Mercury is the first example that comes to mind. Intrinsic Asian name of Freddie Mercury...
Third, generalisation is a bad advisor. Western countries looked for colonies somewhere far, in Asia and Africa, far from their borders. Russia colonized the space near its borders. Ukrainian and Russian languages belong to the same family, same group, same whatever you want. They are closely related languages. Any of the Indian languages are not that closely related to English - some of them very distantly are, some not at all. Can you see the difference between the two situations?
Fourth, the word Holodomor seems to be a direct clone of the Czech word Hladomor - interesting, what was the need to copy the word from the other language, the language that most of Ukrainians can't understand, unless they are West Ukrainians?.. The term applying to the famine in Ukraine in 1932-1933 first appeared in Canadian press in the late 1970s. The word mysteriously resembles the word Holocaust, don't you think? Is it a coincidence? Maybe. My maternal parents both were children in 1932-33, granma lived in a relatively rich family, grandad lived in a pure poor one. NONE of their families has died, for all I know. Indeed, my granma once recalled that there was "oh so terrible famine". However, again, NOBODY from their families seemed to die - and they got really big families, like five brothers and sisters, etc. The famine also happened all over the Soviet Union, percentage-wise it was Kazakhstan that suffered most. Was it constructed specifically to kill Ukrainians? Perhaps. But if you are aware of the Russian way of life, Russian way of doing things, you may believe the famine was the consequence of a permanent Russian chaos. Or to be more PA-friendly, the famine was the consequence of an eclectic nature of Russian statehood. Eclectic prog, you know. Was there a famine? Definitely! What caused it? God only knows, literally! For your information, it is well-known to researchers that the Soviet power disliked the village people at all, as the class. Villagers were too free, had some land in their property, could easily hide themselves or hide someone/something, were impossible to bug. Village people were alien to the Soviet regime. ALL of them, not only in Ukraine.
Fifth, British Empire is certainly sinless. They took Indians as their equal, as their friends. Agreed!
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Favourite Band: Gentle Giant
Favourite Writer: Robert Sheckley
Favourite Horror Writer: Jean Ray
Favourite Computer Game: Tiny Toon - Buster's Hidden Treasure (Sega Mega Drive/Genesis)
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snobb
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: August 20 2009
Location: Vilnius,LT,EU
Status: Offline
Points: 3584
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Posted: December 08 2021 at 10:58 |
 "size is a matter" Eurasian Imperialism is all in these three words, it just looked all that stayed in XIX century... After 30 yrs, I'm loosing a bite understanding Eurasian mentality, you refreshed my knowledge in a moment
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Woon Deadn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2010
Location: P
Status: Offline
Points: 1017
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Posted: December 08 2021 at 11:31 |
snobb wrote:
"size is a matter"
Eurasian Imperialism is all in these three words, it just looked all that stayed in XIX century...
After 30 yrs, I'm loosing a bite understanding Eurasian mentality, you refreshed my knowledge in a moment |
Don't get me wrong, in our dreams, size doesn't matter. In some Hollywood movies, size doesn't matter. I fully agree that we as the humankind according to... best traditions... reckoning the bla-bla la-la etc et al have to... has to... obliged to... But there's also a real life. Where the American government has the right to land the plane of the Bolivian president and the Belarusian government has no right to land a commercial plane - although the official state presidential plane is impenetrable by international law. Unless you're a pirate, or the USA. Belarus is small, USA is big. That simple.
You're simply living in a very dream-like state of mind. That's your right, sir.
Again, try to think of a mysterious coincidence between the terms Holodomor and Holocaust. A divine coincidence, I'd say. Or a ciane coincidence?..
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Favourite Band: Gentle Giant
Favourite Writer: Robert Sheckley
Favourite Horror Writer: Jean Ray
Favourite Computer Game: Tiny Toon - Buster's Hidden Treasure (Sega Mega Drive/Genesis)
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snobb
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: August 20 2009
Location: Vilnius,LT,EU
Status: Offline
Points: 3584
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Posted: December 08 2021 at 12:02 |
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since I've been living for years near people from Eurasia, with your type of mentality, I understand your point of you. Don't really think modern world is still same as in XX century. Mr.Putin would be proud of you though :)
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Woon Deadn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2010
Location: P
Status: Offline
Points: 1017
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Posted: December 08 2021 at 12:20 |
snobb wrote:
since I've been living for years near people from Eurasia, with your type of mentality, I understand your point of you. Don't really think modern world is still same as in XX century. Mr.Putin would be proud of you though :) |
I wouldn't even say I'm a fan of Putin. I'm a fan of Gentle Giant. I'm a fan of grapefruit. But the world doesn't consist of fans only... There are also combs and brushes and tons of other things.
Simple solutions don't work. Simple explanations don't work. If you are able to dive deep, the whole new world is getting exposed in front of your eyes.
Or, let me put it another way: is John Bonham great? TO WHOM? To the people he abused, men and women? No, he wasn't great. To his wife and son? Yes. To the people all over the world that never met him? Some like him, some do not care, some don't like him. I personally hate such people as John Bonham or Jimmy Page. Replace "John Bonham" with "the USSR" and you'll get the idea, my friend . Keep in mind, however, that John Bonham remains the same.
Edited by Woon Deadn - December 08 2021 at 12:23
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Favourite Band: Gentle Giant
Favourite Writer: Robert Sheckley
Favourite Horror Writer: Jean Ray
Favourite Computer Game: Tiny Toon - Buster's Hidden Treasure (Sega Mega Drive/Genesis)
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Mirakaze
Special Collaborator
Eclectic, JRF/Canterbury, Avant/Zeuhl
Joined: December 17 2019
Location: (redacted)
Status: Offline
Points: 4234
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Posted: December 08 2021 at 14:26 |
Sean Trane wrote:
Not to mention regional tensions inside the westerns countries like Ireland, GB (Scotland), Spain (Basque, Catalan), France (Corsican & Bretons), Belgium (Flemish & Walloons), Netherlands (Frisians), Italy (Sardinia & Sicily, Liga of the North) etc.... |
Getting a bit off-topic but the Frisians don't belong in this list at all. There is a movement in the Dutch part of Frisia advocating for greater autonomy and cultural recognition, but there's no real Frisian independence movement, let alone "regional tensions" or any real ethnic hatred between Frisians and Hollanders.
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NotAProghead
Special Collaborator
Errors & Omissions Team
Joined: October 22 2005
Location: Russia
Status: Offline
Points: 7956
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Posted: December 08 2021 at 15:22 |
Easy Money wrote:
When did you visit or live in a soviet country? |
You could notice under my avatar that I'm from Russia. I lived the first half of my life "under soviets" and the second half "under westerners" (including transitional period called Perestroyka), so I can compare. Some things were better then, some now, and vise versa - some were horrible, some are horrible now. No answer to the question: what's better? It would be better to take all good from both eras and throw away all the bad, but it doesn't happen.
I have the feeling that we live in the end of Western civilisation. I see no end of the last years' madness (multiculturalism, political correctness. BLM, COVID hysteria and digital Gulag, total hypocrisy etc). What comes next? New barbarians? I hope for good, but don't believe things will be better.
snobb wrote:
the difference between British Empire and Russian Empire is mainly Brits bring to India Western civilization - technologies, industry, common organization. And they left in time when understood that India is no more their colony...
what Russian Empire gave to colonized Ukraine - Golodomor (death of few millions Ukrainians from hunger because Russian occupants took the foodstuff from Ukraine to Russia to support their own population), corruption (which is biggest problem in Ukraine till now), Eurasian culture of spiting on the streets and throwing garbage right where you are, alcoholism? And they still can't forgive that Ukraine don't want to be and Eurasian colony anymore? |
Slava, I know you hate Russian Empire. It's your right, but please tell us how Baltic countries suffered so badly from Soviet occupation, which included "technologies, industry, common organization". And how independent Baltic Tigers saved and improved these technologies and industry. Because bad tongues in Putin's land say you've lost (просрали in Russian) most of them. Are they lying?
Edited by NotAProghead - December 08 2021 at 15:42
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Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)
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snobb
Special Collaborator
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Joined: August 20 2009
Location: Vilnius,LT,EU
Status: Offline
Points: 3584
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Posted: December 09 2021 at 02:03 |
your question is easy and difficult at the same time As you, I've been living half of my life under Soviet regime, and the other - in free Western world. The difference is too large to be mentioned here in a few words, there are lots of books written about it, etc. I am not sure, if you ever visited Baltics, in Soviet time and now, if yes - you wouldn't ask this question probably. RE-Technologies, even it's just quite a specific question. 90% of unique lasers in Top-100 world's Universities laboratories are engineered and produced here in Vilnius. We are selling to Japan a lot of uique lasers as well Our biotech researchers/laboratories invent one of the most modern pharmaceuticals which are then patented and produced in States and around Europe, incl. components for anti-Covid19 vaccines, etc Still few yrs ago Lithuania has been covered with fastest internet in the world (98% territory), this market is very dynamic but we're still in top 10 now. It takes up to 2 days to open a new company here, you can do everything just on-line ETC,ETC,ETC in this case, one of symptomatize indicator is huge community of Russian citizens, living here in Vilnius (thousands of them), and it's growing very fast. Sometimes I have some contacts with one or other member of it, them all are really different, but one common thing is they all really prefer to live here in Vilnius than in Russia - because of much higher life quality, way better services level, highest everyday culture, better medicine - just much more pleasant life in common. Non of them are economic migrants, generally them are Russian middle or upper middle class, people who has enough money to live quite well in Russia. They prefer to make money in Russia (as rule, it's easier for them, more profitable, and to be honest they can hardly use this their experience here in the West usefully), but they absolutely prefer to live outside of Russia. Who from the civilized world would agree to live in Russia (ok, I know one guy - Mr.Snowden, but even him doesn't look happy because of that). In modern internet world it's very easy to find lot of real information about any country, just use non-Kremlin controlled sources, you will be probably shocked how much it differs from what Mr.Putin says about us :))))
Edited by snobb - December 09 2021 at 02:04
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20414
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Posted: December 09 2021 at 02:14 |
Mirakaze wrote:
Sean Trane wrote:
Not to mention regional tensions inside the westerns countries like Ireland, GB (Scotland), Spain (Basque, Catalan), France (Corsican & Bretons), Belgium (Flemish & Walloons), Netherlands (Frisians), Italy (Sardinia & Sicily, Liga of the North) etc.... |
Getting a bit off-topic but the Frisians don't belong in this list at all. There is a movement in the Dutch part of Frisia advocating for greater autonomy and cultural recognition, but there's no real Frisian independence movement, let alone "regional tensions" or any real ethnic hatred between Frisians and Hollanders.
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just testing if I was being read at all.
Though I work in West-Friesland (between Alkmaar & Den Helder), and we don't have Mennonite or Amish villages in our area, the people's Dutch is quite hard to understand.
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Davesax1965
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 2839
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Posted: December 09 2021 at 02:16 |
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It's just political posturing, rather than an open attempt at a land grab.
I have friends in Kharkiv, 50km from the border, who are really not very worried about it. I've got to go there on business next year, I'm not bothered about it at all. Any military action will not involve Kharkiv but will occur further south.
Also the Ukrainian army is much better equipped and prepared than they were in 2014. The Russians will probably meet very stiff resistance: politically, Russia can't afford a protracted campaign in Ukraine, the public will not stand for it.
All in all, it seems a fairly stupid thing to do considering the sanctions that will accrue from it. Putin is trying to get more negotiating power with the West and is doing it by methods which are redolent of North Korea.
All pretty pathetic and ill advised.
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Russia/Ukraine tensions - Any concern?
